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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantom Grappler View Post

    I think blowout shown at start of this thread was rare event. Maybe a new guy, maybe tired, or in a hurry, maybe trying to use less amsteel. He might have to buy all his own amsteel and sell finished product to cottage vendor
    I don’t know!!!
    I believe this was an anomaly and not likely to reoccur anytime soon

    If you up in the air in yo hammock, you must be doing something right...
    So many smart hammockers, finding different paths to same place...hammock nirvana!

    Except that the original failed and the replacement sent approximately 3 months later failed as well. So I'm 2 for 4 on not breaking continuous loops. I watched a video where the the guy used a 28 inch line to make an eight inch loop. I measured one of my broken loops, 24 inches.

  2. #52
    Otter1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajoutdoors View Post
    Except that the original failed and the replacement sent approximately 3 months later failed as well. So I'm 2 for 4 on not breaking continuous loops. I watched a video where the the guy used a 28 inch line to make an eight inch loop. I measured one of my broken loops, 24 inches.
    Aha!!!!! Yep....they got careless with the bury.

  3. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by TominMN View Post
    Thanks for posting this. Method 1 is what I contend we see most often. I wasn't aware that Papa Smurf, Dutch, and Brandon was using method 2 and I should have been as I have purchased from all of them. I'll have to go look at the various CLs.

    I see Just Bill's comment that he has seen CLs with a bump and found that odd. I find it odd that he can make a CL with a locked Brummel and NOT have a bump!

    And I agree: the locked Brummel absolutely must be the weak spot in method 2 but we don't yet know exactly how much the CL is compromised. Those using it must consider the trade-off to be justified.

    There is a third technique. That is to simply do the buries without passing anything completely through. Like method 1, it is best to follow up with a locking stitch to prevent any slippage. This technique is easily the strongest.

    I'll also repeat that only one good bury is needed to achieve maximum strength. 5" is a good number. The other bury can be shorter. Bt still, maximum strength is achieved by having both buries properly tapered.
    Guess this is what comes from not being a splicing nerd and keeping up on the discussion, lol.
    I was suffering from a terminology problem which a few minutes of messing with some cord has resolved.

    Thanks to leiavoia for the excellent video...
    Guess all I would add is that the difference is fairly simple, so I could see how someone could mess it up.
    Pass through vs locked.jpg
    Start is the same either way... As leiavoia pointed out you DON'T pull the second mark through the first before you pull the second tail to do what you are calling a pass through loop.

    I thought you meant 'locked' by 'pass through' as to accomplish that you pass the second mark (hole) through the first hole before you pull through the tail.

    That's the way I understood the two methods when I learned- 'pass through' to locked, don't pass to do a simple loop.
    Sorry to add to the confusion. As Phantom mentioned- Grog Sling is the better example.
    https://www.animatedknots.com/grog-sling-knot

    As fer the bump...
    Big Bump.jpg
    I remain confussed. (spelling intentional).
    My locked loops have always come out fairly smooth. You can clearly find the spot, but it is doesn't look like a knot has been tied there. I'd say... 110% maybe 120% of the rope diameter and fairly evenly spread is about right. Even the super compact loop made in the grog sling demonstration has a fairly clean one. Not as clean as a simple (pass through) loop, but nowhere near as honking big as some of the loops I've seen. (and no I don't mean a diamond knot or shackle).

    I actually tried to mess things up to create a large enough knot to demonstrate what I mean. Skipping the mark, burying one tail for a third pass, skipping extra picks before the bury, and just getting sloppy with setting the loop before I buried it. Couldn't do it. For the picture above I literally had to tie a knot and bury the tails to get something close and even that didn't quite do it.

    Yes... it would be incredibly helpful if I just posted one or two of the pictures I've seen but I don't want to call out anyone in that way.


    That said I still prefer the simple loop. It has been several years since I paid any attention to the discussion but my understanding was similar to others... the Brummel reduces strength (by exactly how much I don't care). The simple loop does not. Overall you end up with more than the breaking strength of the cord used on it's own meaning that the loop is not the weak link in the chain regardless.
    The locked loop creates a hard spot, while the simple loop loads more uniformly as well. I also like to offset the locked portion when I do my girth hitches or use them for gathered end suspension so that portion of the rope is always pulled inline and it isn't getting 'worked' at all in use.

    I do understand Leiavoia's magic trick to pull it apart, but I find that a highly unusual scenario in real life.
    Overall I'm very much in the Sgt. Rock camp on splicing and suspension. Dynaglide at 1000lbs is plenty for me.
    I don't really see a scenario that I use loops that doesn't have at least a portion of the loop loaded or hitched prior to loading. I would use a soft shackle in any setup where the loop would be open and inline to the load.

    I do appreciate those who dig deep into the bowels of these issues though. So no disrespect intended to those who do.

    While an unloaded sling could conceivably pull apart (especially if you milk it like a sally and never set it to start with)
    I don't see it as a serious issue for most of us provided you are using the proper bury and set it prior to use.

    As ajoutdoors just posted though... shoddy work is shoddy work. I have done some bulk splicing work (and trained others to) and it does really beat up your hands. Tugging hard to set the first pulls before the bury, milking each side hard, then tugging hard to ensure the set is good hand work for climbers. My Ukranian splicing mistress likes to use one of those rubber grip jar openers to set and milk the splices to save her hands. I could very easily picture some poor shlub stuck doing a hundred loops just giving them the minimum tugs to cover up the tails and never really jerking on them. Use that casually and it might just fall apart.

    24" is very stingy on cordage too.
    MAYBE a micro dynaglide loop (5.5" or 6") but not an 8" 7/64" loop. He mentioned seeing 28" in a video.
    The number I learned was 4x the loop size. 8" loop is 32" of rope. If you wanted to get a little reckless you could go to 30".

    I also learned to add 1" and to measure from the center. As in fold your rope in half, measure loop length+1" and make your marks. The extra inch gives you room for the losses from Brummel and bury while still ensuring as close to a full bury without overlap as you can get.

    6" dynaglide loop with 24" of rope is the lightest I go... still 4x loop size but with a smaller diameter line you get at least 5" of solid bury per side. For those I measure loop length plus 3/4".

    I don't claim to be a splicing master... but I do a good bit of it. I can't quote you the fid calculations or can claim to have memorized any Samson pamphlets. We are not doing rigging or climbing equipment and 5 to 1 ratios are plenty for static loads, a few rules of thumb are all we really need. 7/64" up to 250lbs... 1/8" over 250... and Dynaglide 'if you wanna die' is pretty much where I fall on it. Don't buy any other rope, it only makes things complicated. Minimum of 1" taper and unless you got a real good reason at least 6" of bury.

    As mentioned;

    Kudos to those who do really nerd out and sort out the details for those of us who don't. Each of us here is a nerd about something. 'Yer gunna die' rarely applies though unless you really mess up the basics. I think splicing is a good skill to learn and don't want folks to get too intimidated by it... or too hung up on the minutia. While there is a proper way to do rigging or highly critical splicing, there is more than one way to skin this cat for sure.

    Bottom line is this is just like most stuff that goes wrong- some dumb human went and had a very human mess up.
    You can go overboard hoping to prevent it from ever happening again... but the more complicated things get the more likely they get messed up in new and fantastic ways. Simplify and verify.

    Or as Mark at our local hang put it.. 'trying to idiot proof something just creates better idiots.'

  4. #54
    @Bill - What we're really doing here is more professionally called "Risk Assessment" - brainstorming every possible way something can fail, and then coming up with a solution or backup plan to handle cases of failure.

    A number of people on this forum come from backgrounds like Search and Rescue, sailing, and rock climbing where silly gear mistakes can be lethal. For these folks, seemingly unimportant details can be the difference between having fun and a trip to the hospital. They are doing the community a service by arguing about how rope should be tied, of all things.

  5. #55
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    Just Bill, Thanks for the comprehensive response. I would only add one thing: Any of these splice methods result in a spot in the loop that is weaker to some extent. Agreed, it may range from trivial to substantial. It's simply the side effect of splicing. There is no splice (or knot) that I've heard of that doesn't result in a compromise. Also agree that the portions of the loop where the buries exist is actually stronger but the "center" is the weak link, pun intended. For that reason, I would personally avoid the locked Brummel method with Dynaglide. I'd go with what you call the Simple Loop or the third method I mentioned.

    Edit: I guess I actually should add that, because we are dealing with a loop, the load on the weak spot is halved and further minimizes any risk.
    Last edited by TominMN; 09-12-2019 at 05:08.

  6. #56
    aka 'Extra' MikekiM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantom Grappler View Post
    .......And if doing pass through splice, you can make buries as long as possible—almost meeting on opposite side of loop. This will give most strength (probably not needed) and with longer buries, increased gripping friction when not under load will make backing out less likely.....
    Quote Originally Posted by ajoutdoors View Post
    Except that the original failed and the replacement sent approximately 3 months later failed as well. So I'm 2 for 4 on not breaking continuous loops. I watched a video where the the guy used a 28 inch line to make an eight inch loop. I measured one of my broken loops, 24 inches.
    I think the short cordage and hence shorter bury solves the mystery of why this loop failed, and possibly the other failure we saw from the same manufacturer. Two inches of bury per leg missing from the equation.. That's a whole lot of constrictor grip that is missing.

    I'm not suggesting bad intent, but four inches of cordage, times countless continuous loops adds up to a measurable savings in materials used. Gotta watch the bottom line and all that. However, letting this stuff leave the shop with potential for failure is a serious problem.. that's where recalls are born.

    I use 28" as well... but I bury the legs as far into the loop as I can, until they almost meet at the other end. I sacrifice some loop length for the deeper bury. Never bought a CL from a vendor so all of mine have been DIY and in both 7/64 Amsteel and Dynaglide (I know.. I'm gonna die). I also make sure the splice-point is used for the larks head so it adds additional pressure on and around the bury when the loop is weighted. Never had one pull out or fail in any way.. wore more than a a few out though.
    * The difficulty of finding any given trail marker is directly proportional to the importance of the consequences of failing to find it.

    * I can lift all the weight I want at the gym. Walking shouldn't be a workout. ~ Just Bill


  7. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by MikekiM View Post
    I think the short cordage and hence shorter bury solves the mystery of why this loop failed, and possibly the other failure we saw from the same manufacturer. Two inches of bury per leg missing from the equation.. That's a whole lot of constrictor grip that is missing.

    I'm not suggesting bad intent, but four inches of cordage, times countless continuous loops adds up to a measurable savings in materials used. Gotta watch the bottom line and all that. However, letting this stuff leave the shop with potential for failure is a serious problem.. that's where recalls are born.
    I'll quote Micheal as that pretty well sums up what happened in my opinion.

    As fer risk assessment... I agree with the sentiment. It's hard to walk the line of 'ranting' vs discussing when simply typing so apologies where that doesn't come off properly.
    I have no real issue with nerding out and digging deep and understand that some folks do that professionally. I do think it is of value. 'If you know where you stand, then you know where to land' as ms. maggart says.

    As fer me... if you want to use more professional terms I'm more into 'Risk Management'. I was a climbing instructor and set up zip lines and other fun stuff like that before it was really a thing. I worked professionally as an Arborist for a time and moved up to running crews before I became a carpenter. https://www.safetynewsalert.com/tree...-wood-chipper/
    People get sucked into chippers, bury saws in themselves, drop limbs on each other, cut their own line or even cut the tree down they are climbing in while they are in it somehow.
    But folks still get up and do the job every day and for the most part a chipper is still the same chipper it was 20 years ago and they still gobble up a few folks a year.

    As I say with gear design in general (especially SUL stuff)... find the edge of the cliff first and then take a step or two back onto solid ground.

    So for sure digging deep into the risk assessment discussions or 'after event' meetings as workplace injuries/fatalities are politely called is valuable.

    Identify risk. Assess risk. Then balance it against reality and manage it impersonally.

    That's really my only point... and really all 'yer gunna die' meant.
    I always worked to find the simplest solution, as that was the most likely to get implemented in the field. To me that is the job of the risk management team... boil down the minutia provided by the analysts into something the average guy on the sharp end could accomplish. Don't make something scary any scarier. Don't take a complicated task more complicated. Make it manageable.

    Perspective is a good tool as well- Nobody wants to get dropped on their butt... but it beats going through a chipper.

  8. #58
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    I've been doing the double crossover double tuck with a good long bury for the tails with nary a problem. Then larkshead to the GE channels with the crossover part right in the middle of the bend and I just don't see it ever causing a problem.
    UL, because nobody ever asks "How can I make my pack heavier?"

  9. #59
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    I just received 1/8 loops from dutchware. Seems that they use a Brummell knot. Got it all fixed up and ready to go for the boundary waters next week. Also, dumb question, but why do most use 7/64 instead of 1/8.

  10. #60
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    7/64 is less expensive, certainly has enough max limit margin, more pliable, and smaller diameter (especially with the bury) so works with smaller hardware. It contributes to the goal of using the least of something that will do the job safely. "Least of something" does not mean, "Cut corners". Also, often 7/64 is on sale and easier two work with than the smaller stuff.

    I do use LashIt for hammock ridge lines but I use 7/64 for all other projects.

    Except I have one large hank of 1/8th that might have been sent to me by mistake years ago. I just used it last night to make loops to attach webbing buckles. Because of the size, I had to shorten my bury about and inch. I'll keep an eye on it but after a few uses, I'm sure the cord will be pulled tight so skinnier. Then I can rotate it on the buckle so the bury is part of the cord that is wrapped around the buckle rather than the part that holds the carabiner. The wraps will take more stress off the locked brummel.
    Last edited by cougarmeat; 09-13-2019 at 12:34.
    In order to see what few have seen, you must go where few have gone. And DO what few have done.

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