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  1. #21
    Senior Member jeff-oh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cougarmeat View Post
    Something to bear in mind when the, "DCF is used for boat sails so it should withstand the wind" thoughts enter is ... They are not holding the sailboat back against the wind. They are not anchored to the ground, a tree, etc. holding the wind back. On a sail boat, they are filling the shape of the sail and going with the wind. That's not to say too much sail won't have problems in a storm - it's that the dynamics are different.

    How does a sailboat move? Most people picture it being pushed by the wind in the sail. Sometimes, yes, when the wind is at the stern (back). But usually - the boat is "pulled". Imagine an airplane wing. The air over the top creates a pressure difference that causes lift - pulling the plane up. Now imagine that horizontal wing in a vertical position - that's a sail. The shape of the sail causes that same pressure difference but instead of pulling a horizontal wing up, it's pulling vertical wing forward. The DCF sail is moving with the wind.

    So I'm not saying DCF isn't strong. I'm just suggesting that thinking a DCF sail on a boat is the same dynamic as an anchored down tarp, could be a little off.
    It really is kinda the same. Sail, Tarp, Propeller, Rotatory wing, or fixed wing. It all comes down to a Pressure over an area. DeltaP/A. This is the load and force into the structure. Now on a tarp the sheet will have to react the full load out the tie outs as what it ties too is fixed. In a sail the Force is all there also and is transferred through the structure to accelerate the boat. (F=MA) and overcome the water friction.

    The biggest difference in a sail and a tarp is how it is held. Most main sails are held the full length of the mast and boom providing a large reaction area to the overall load at any one "tie-out" is greatly reduced. In a tarp it is held at 4 points. This is one reason I favor a CRL under the tarp. In a windy situation the tarp load is transferred to the ridgeline over a larger area than an Over the tarp hang.

    The difference you may be are eluding at is real in that the relative speed of a sail boat to the wind can diminish the perceived wind speed. i.e. a boat cruising at 20mph in the same direction as a 30mph wind experiences a 10mph relative wind.

  2. #22
    SilvrSurfr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeff-oh View Post
    How the tarp is tied out makes all the difference.
    This is my main suspicion, that the tarp was tied out strangely. It was dirtbaghiker's first or second trip with a DCF tarp, so that kind of makes me wonder what he was doing different from most people.

    I haven't personally seen any failures of DCF tarps among my friends who own one. Jerzeybears both have DCF tarps with lots of patches, but DCF patches well, and it really appeared they were just camping too close to the fire. SilentOrpheus also has an HG Palace that he bought used, which had a lot of delamination at the ends of the ridgeline. I can only guess that a) the previous owners were tightening the ridgeline too tight, and b) the tarp was probably left out in the sun quite a bit. SilentOrpheus sent the tarp to HG, and they repaired it - probably weighs an ounce more than it would without the repairs.
    "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." Ralph Waldo Emerson

  3. #23
    Senior Member MikekiM's Avatar
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    I've had silnylon, silpoly and DCF.. I can't say I pitch them any different.
    Sounds like a good opportunity to learn.. so learn me please. How does your pitch differ for your DCF tarp than it would for a silpoly or silnylon tarp...specifically?


    Quote Originally Posted by SilvrSurfr View Post
    ... It was dirtbaghiker's first or second trip with a DCF tarp, so that kind of makes me wonder what he was doing different from most people....
    Not sure if this is true... he has three DCF tarps, and has been backpacking for a while.
    Yes, my pack weighs 70lbs, but it's all light weight gear....
    Bob's brother-in-law

  4. #24
    GilligansWorld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikekiM View Post
    I've had silnylon, silpoly and DCF.. I can't say I pitch them any different.
    Sounds like a good opportunity to learn.. so learn me please. How does your pitch differ for your DCF tarp than it would for a silpoly or silnylon tarp...specifically?




    Not sure if this is true... he has three DCF tarps, and has been backpacking for a while.
    That's something I have been pretty skeptical about too?
    If only we could see how Dirtbag Hiker Pitched his set up....
    I wonder where we could check...
    Ohh yeah we just have to watch his video - luckily I did . Looked fine by my uneducated noob *** but Guess we just need professor DCF to rescue us - give us some "expert" learnin

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
    Last edited by GilligansWorld; 02-12-2020 at 09:08.
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  5. #25
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    Two points:

    1- DCF seam construction is tricky business. Extreme temperatures have caused seam failures since the very first folks started working with it, the adhesives used fail. I am not a DCF expert, in part because I believe that it does require some expertise to make it. Much like working with other SUL fabrics- proper needle size, thread size, stitch length and seam construction are important. Add to that selecting the correct adhesive, tape, and seam construction. In real life- Very few people actually sew things with load bearing seams. A bridge hammock is much more advanced than a simple gathered end for example. Tarp construction is much more difficult than other construction for the same reason. Even backpacks are often built with heavy fabrics and/or binding tape... so while there are some stress points involved it's not exactly delicate work. As more vendors casually take on DCF tarp builds, I suspect you will see some more failures.

    2- The Willow and the Oak principle applies. Even more dramatically so in hammock camping. I still remain mildly shocked how aggressively hammock users in general pitch their tarps. people really want it to have those crisp, sharp lines and drum tight pitch. In part, DCF only magnifies this issue as it in itself is a rigid material and combining a rigid material with a drum tight pitch leaves almost zero room for error.

    Hangers are generally familiar with the 30* rule of suspension and the rapidly growing force generated when they go beyond that magical angle. A hanger will dutifully and cautiously line up the forefinger and thumb to obtain the proper slack in the system when pitching the hammock itself. Then that same hanger will use all manner of devices, hitches and 3:1 mechanical advantages on their tarp to violently force their tarp into submission. On more than a few occasions I have had folks comment to me that my STRUCTURAL ridgeline is too tight, then proudly strum a high pitched 'ping' and a few good 'twangs' on the very non-structural tarp lines they just put up.

    There is nothing horrible in and of itself in putting up a decent roof when the rain is a drenchen' ya.
    But you need to learn the ways of the willow when things really get bad and roll with the punches.

    Microbursts are a real thing and I have seen them blow apart houses under construction in town, or blow over trees in the woods. Mountains create their own weather, even more so when you are close to the top. Your tarp is neither a house nor a tree. If you are not with it- it shouldn't be pitched. If your tarp doesn't have any give in the system it will fail under mild gusts. If your stakes are not blowing out under serious gusts- they are not doing their job. If the only place to sleep is in sustained winds well above 20MPH- you are sleeping in the wrong place.

    A tarp is at best a willow, not a mighty oak standing proudly on an exposed hill.
    It does best in lower elevations close to firm moist soil.
    Eight times out of ten operator error is to blame. One in ten are the odds a vendor/material failure is at fault.
    The other 10% of the time Ma' Nature could care less if you were dumb enough to get in her way.

  6. #26
    Senior Member m00ch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilvrSurfr View Post
    .......I can only guess that a) the previous owners were tightening the ridgeline too tight, and b) the tarp was probably left out in the sun quite a bit.....
    Can you quantify "too tight" and "quite a bit"? I have DCF tarps and I want to avoid doing anything to hurt them.

  7. #27
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    Would there be any difference in using a braided polyester tarp line compared to something like Zing-It? Maybe a little more forgiving?

  8. #28
    Senior Member MikekiM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GilligansWorld View Post
    That's something I have been pretty skeptical about too?
    If only we could see how Dirtbag Hiker Pitched his set up....
    I wonder where we could check...
    Ohh yeah we just have to watch his video - luckily I did . Looked fine by my uneducated noob *** but Guess we just need professor DCF to rescue us - give us some "expert" learnin

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
    The only thing I can say I do different is that I had shock cord and a pole mod on the silpoly and don't use either on any of the DCF. I've used split and continuous RLs on both. Guy lines are the same. Tension is the same.
    Yes, my pack weighs 70lbs, but it's all light weight gear....
    Bob's brother-in-law

  9. #29
    GilligansWorld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikekiM View Post
    The only thing I can say I do different is that I had shock cord and a pole mod on the silpoly and don't use either on any of the DCF. I've used split and continuous RLs on both. Guy lines are the same. Tension is the same.
    I probably should have clarified but my earlier comment was not directed at you - your line of questions - we share

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
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  10. #30
    SilvrSurfr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by m00ch View Post
    Can you quantify "too tight" and "quite a bit"? I have DCF tarps and I want to avoid doing anything to hurt them.
    I don't leave my DCF tarp out in the sun, ever. For that matter, I don't leave any tarp out in the sun - too damaging. However, I've read a few posts on HF where people have left their DCF tarp in the back yard for a month or two, and were surprised it delaminated.

    As for tightness, I just tighten my ridgeline enough to keep it from sagging - same with the tent stakes. I just want a taut pitch, not a "tight" pitch.
    "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." Ralph Waldo Emerson

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