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  1. #1
    Senior Member Rusty Shackelford's Avatar
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    Splicing Amsteel

    I am getting ready to make myself some dogbone extensions from 7/64" Amsteel and just want to check in and see how long of a bury y'all typically use after a locked brummel for this application. I know Samson recommends 3.5 fids which is ~8" for 7/64" Amsteel but most of the fixed loops on my cottage gear seem to only have a bury of 5-6", what do y'all consider reasonable yet safe? I hate the idea of using 6' of Amsteel to make one 4' dogbone.

  2. #2
    cmoulder's Avatar
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    I've got some with 4-5" buries and never had a problem, but I don't use them a bunch. Back when I was using whoopies a bit I had some with 5-6" buries and also no problem. Of course it's easy enough with a whoopie to throw in a slipped overhand as a safety back-up. Never had those slip, however.

    Maybe I'm playing Russian Roulette.
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  3. #3
    cougarmeat's Avatar
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    Sorta depends on what that dogbone is gonna do. Sometimes the it’s job doesn’t put as much tension on the bury because the bone is wrapped around some other hardware. I also have several 4+inch bury bones and continuous loops. But if it were going to take a direct linear pull and you shorten up on the recommended bury … What’s that phrase …” Don’t hang higher than you’re willing to fall.”

    I know it’s hard to use 6 ft of somehthing for a 4 ft result - where oh where does all of that 2 feet go … But Amsteel is one of the lessor expensive items in your hammock gear collection. Especially if you watch sites like West Marine and other that have several 40% off sales a year. I think several members hear were able to buy a lifetime supply - a 600 ft roll (or was it 300 ft) for less than 10 cents a foot.
    In order to see what few have seen, you must go where few have gone. And DO what few have done.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Rusty Shackelford's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cougarmeat View Post
    Sorta depends on what that dogbone is gonna do. Sometimes the it’s job doesn’t put as much tension on the bury because the bone is wrapped around some other hardware. I also have several 4+inch bury bones and continuous loops. But if it were going to take a direct linear pull and you shorten up on the recommended bury … What’s that phrase …” Don’t hang higher than you’re willing to fall.”

    I know it’s hard to use 6 ft of somehthing for a 4 ft result - where oh where does all of that 2 feet go … But Amsteel is one of the lessor expensive items in your hammock gear collection. Especially if you watch sites like West Marine and other that have several 40% off sales a year. I think several members hear were able to buy a lifetime supply - a 600 ft roll (or was it 300 ft) for less than 10 cents a foot.
    I'll have to keep an eye out for a good sale and grab some up, I only have around 50' atm and I am a curious person so that likely won't last all that long haha. I am making them in case I ever have to extend my 6' tree huggers to fit on a larger tree, I doubt I would ever have to extend the length of my UCR/whoopies with them.

  5. #5
    Senior Member WV's Avatar
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    I weigh advantages and disadvantages and make my buries on the long side, especially for suspension whoopie slings. I see three possible advantages to short buries: reduced weight, reduced cost, and the ability to hang between trees that are maybe a foot closer together. Of those three the first two are negligible, IMO. The last may make a difference you appreciate more often, but I still don't do it. Most importantly, it's not much of a benefit for dog bones, unless you're trying to make a really short one. Long story short (as it were): I measure the bury length almost always by the length of a loop turner, my splicing tool of choice. That's 9.5" without the round part at the end. I taper the last inch. As a bury shortens the line a bit, it ends up about 9" with the taper.
    ****
    That was all off the top of my head. I just went and made a locked brummel to see if I told the truth. Yup, pretty accurate. (Your inches may vary.)

    Cougarmeat, I have not yet determined how many 600' rolls constitute a lifetime supply.

  6. #6
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    I have a set of commercial made whoopies that has only 3.5” buries on the adjustable loops. As an experiment, I made a set of whoopies with only a 4” bury on the adjustable loops as an experiment and so far they haven’t slipped. But note that if they do slip the result will most likely be a slow descent rather than a drop, so a relatively safe experiment.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrPhun View Post
    But note that if they do slip the result will most likely be a slow descent rather than a drop, so a relatively safe experiment.
    I had a UCR slip on me this spring. It was a mind shattering half second of freefall before the tail with the backsplice jammed itself into the bury and stopped my descent about 6" off the ground. It all happened in the blink of an eye (literally!).

  8. #8
    Phantom Grappler's Avatar
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    Splicing Amsteel

    I can’t guarantee this, but believe I’m right!
    Don’t we all—Lol
    After setting your UCR and milking bury and checking that your prusik is snug.
    There is amsteel hanging loose out of bury exit.
    Tie a slip knot in that loose amsteel one inch from bury exit. Tighten slip knot. Slip knot should be oriented so that when bitter end of loose end is pulled—your slip knot will get pulled untied.

    If your UCR fails while you are in hammock, I believe slip knot will get pulled up to bury exit and not be able to be pulled into bury. Even if it did? get pulled into bury, wouldn’t it be slow going, pulling that fat slip knot through skinny bury?!?!?

    My idea is that you would only drop about an inch. And then your fall would be stopped.
    At that point you could—if awake, get up and re-milk the bury and leave slip knot touching bury exit.

    All this is a Phantom guess
    Deep down inside I know I’m right
    As we all do
    “I know you right”

    Let’s add one more Phantom guess
    Instead of a slip knot
    Apply a marlin spike hitch in same place—an inch from bury exit.
    Use a sturdy stick or even better a tightly rolled sock!
    I can’t imagine toggle getting pulled into and through a skinny bury.
    A sock would be better here than a stick—so that none of your gear can be punctured by a rough stick.

    If I got paid to tell lies...
    It just wouldn’t be as much fun...
    Last edited by Phantom Grappler; 12-03-2020 at 10:42.

  9. #9
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    this seems to be a recurring pattern. when talking about dyneema, "it" does not need to be pulled through the burry, most knots simply slip in dyneema at very petty loads compared to line strength. the problem with securing something on the "free" end of the burry of a ucr so that it can't go in is that by doing this, you sabotage the functionality of the burry, and endup relying on the safety measure instead (which is usually ineffective at any signifcant loads), this goes for the half hitch method too. not to mention the result when slipping is messy at best, destructive to the dyneema usually, and catastrophic at worse.

    the solution is to combine a long enough burry for the type of line you're using with a decent friction hitch (that is, not a prusik), ideally made out of a reasonable line (that is, not dyneema, and especially not the same diameter dyneema), a 2mm paracord style line on 3mm dyneema will do nicely in my testing so far. the strength of the cord for the friction hitch doesn't need to be that much, as once the burry slips, the tension on the friction hitch will stretch it tight, and the burry will take up most of the load (the fact that dyneema doesn't stretch almost at all, while the micro paracord/nylon stretches a lot makes it almost impossible for the friction hitch to take up much load). this works perfectly, safely and reliably, assuming the burry is of reasonable size (this means that it will take over 80% of line strength without issues once milked; that's often hard to test, but testing with at least 3 times ones body weight is easy to do and the minimum safety test before comitting to use any suspension imho)

    this is regarding ucr's, not whoopies, the burry length requirements in anecdotal testing, and the failure mode when one or the other slips, are quite different (ucr obviously will need a longer burry and will fail more spectacularly, when not done properly).

    regarding the original question: if you want to splice general purpose fixed loops (like dogbone), you should use the manufacturer recommendation, and hope to retain 100% line strength if you do well, but expect to retain about 80% (unless you can test samples of your work to destruction). if you make shorter burries, depending on the line you're using and how much you shorten them, you will lose varying amounts of strength. typically, "nobody knows" how much you'll endup with, because quite frankly, nobody bothers to do testing of such things (except manufacturers who aim for maximum stength, which is the point of splicing, so the only reliable burry length we have, in terms of strength retained, is the full strength one). the "manufacturers" who sell short burry apparel to hammock hangers simply rely on the fact that you will likely never reach the strength of the line, so "it'll do". ahem. if you don't like the idea of using so much line for the burry, i would suggest one of three things: either make the dogbones much longer (so it is worth it), or use a knot which is well audited in dyneema (you will get a lot less strength, but it's the same with a too short burry, and at least the knot will be shorter, although bulkier), or use cascaded brummel locks with a very short burry just to keep stuff from unraveling (5 of them should retain near line strength i've heard, but haven't tested, so i'd assume 50% to be safe, until proven otherwise). even a sinle brummel lock on it's own retains some strength, though how much will depend on the line used, and (annoyingly) the length of the tail after the brummel, this is why you will hear people say "i use a 2inch burry on 3mm dyneema and haven't had any issues", yeah, line strength in that case is near a ton, and you splice to get anything between say 100kg and the one ton (this is all "didn't have any problems with it" is telling us, impossible to say where in that range it is).

    in my very humble but quite vocal opinnion :P, short burry fixed eye loops are very confusing and misleading, most people will not measure the burry length and acknowledge it's not long enough, but will expect full line strength because it "looks like a nicely done splice, and splices are strong". even if the sellers would test their work and clearly state the mean and minimum measured break strength, i still find the practice unnecessarily dangerous, unless we find a way to label such splices clearly (much in the way carabiners are).

    in other words, imho, please, "full length burry or don't bother"

    rant over

    i don't mean to offend anyone, but on one hand we're talking about safety factors, and high tech materials of amazing strength, but on the other hand we got so spoiled by dyneema and such space age materials that we don't bother to test anymore, but continue striving for light weight, convenience and economy, using qualifiers such as "it's plenty strong" "more than enough" etc. i feel we're asking for trouble. please test TO FAILURE or strictly follow manufacturer recommendations, not in between. we have space age materials, but we don't (yet) have technology to properly replace bodies and limbs.

  10. #10
    cougarmeat's Avatar
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    If you are learning to splice and can find one of those discount sales, you might benefit from buying about 3 - 5 feet of extra thick - like 1/2 or 3/4 inch Amsteel. It’s great for learning new stopper knots and giving demos. I used my section to learn the last piece of my spicing puzzle - making an eye-splice with only one end of the line available. You can see the splicing moves in “Large screen”” and undo them to practice again and again.

    Unfortunately, my piece is too short to try the button knot on the evo loop, or the diamond knot on the soft shackle. I should have bought the larger diameter “learning” piece a few feet longer.
    In order to see what few have seen, you must go where few have gone. And DO what few have done.

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