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  1. #11
    cmoulder's Avatar
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    If you find Becket disturbing you'll be absolutely aghast with Lapp!

    But with Kevlar 3.3 it has never slipped a micron. I once got caught a bit short—big tree, long span—and ended up with about a 2-inch bight and a one inch tail but did not worry about it; it simply doesn't slip.

    Phantom is on target. These things are working fine for the vast majority of people. We hear about the occasional tragedy with tree collapse or support structure failure killing or injuring somebody but rarely (if ever?) hear of injuries from suspension failures. Early in my experimentation phase I did have suspension combos that didn't quite work, but in each instance they gave me fair warning and let me down relatively gently, although a strap or CL might have been destroyed in the process.
    Five Basic Principles of Going Lighter (not me... the great Cam Honan of OZ) Instagram (me!)

    “To equip a pedestrian with shelter, bedding, utensils, food, and other necessities, in a pack so light and small that he can carry it without overstrain, is really a fine art.” ~ Horace Kephart, 1906

  2. #12
    Senior Member rweb82's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmoulder View Post
    If you find Becket disturbing you'll be absolutely aghast with Lapp!

    But with Kevlar 3.3 it has never slipped a micron. I once got caught a bit short—big tree, long span—and ended up with about a 2-inch bight and a one inch tail but did not worry about it; it simply doesn't slip.

    Phantom is on target. These things are working fine for the vast majority of people. We hear about the occasional tragedy with tree collapse or support structure failure killing or injuring somebody but rarely (if ever?) hear of injuries from suspension failures. Early in my experimentation phase I did have suspension combos that didn't quite work, but in each instance they gave me fair warning and let me down relatively gently, although a strap or CL might have been destroyed in the process.
    I agree. The becket hitch has been used for millennia to hang hammocks in South America. It's quite possibly the oldest method of hanging a hammock. To say it has been field-tested is a gross understatement.

    And even with new webbing materials, the standard becket hitch works just fine for many hangers- the only exception being webbing in the sub-2g/ft. range.

  3. #13

    Join Date
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    For my $ I find the Becket with most any reasonable strap to be the best as far as reliability. I’ve only ever been dumped to the ground when I was shock load testing with mule tape. I had to push it hard and was looking for a trouble. With any other strap including the dyneema stuff, it never slipped no matter what I tried.

    I’ve had cinch buckles slip all the way down when they bar was slightly diagonal. This is particularly and issue with thinner straps.

    The carabiner and loop system I’ve never had a single mishap with, but don’t like the lack of fine tuning there. Whoopies look great, just seem overly complex to me.

  4. #14
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    yeah, exactly: it's been used for ever (in different materials though, very different), it works fine... for most hangers, except if it's ultralight webbing, etc. there's too many variables and disclaimers, and the "data" we have from field testing in 2 inch manila rope over the centuries should be regarded with some skepticism when extrapolating to 3mm dyneema dental floss and webbing that wheighs less per foot than some shoelaces of that same era.i'm not saying the becket hitch is bankrupt, i'm just saying i would not recommend it to anyone, meaning "if you have to ask, then no, use something else", if you know what you're doing and have the understanding as to when it's expected to work and how, then fine, but i'm at the point where i would rather not give it to a beginner as the first method to learn (and that makes me sad). and yes, i do hold the unpopular opinion that hammock manufacturers (or is it outfitters these days) should test webbing that they sell for suspension in the intended configuration, and state the configuration tested and the failure mode and load where it fails. just passing on the manufacturer provided MBS of the webbing won't do (or it shouldn't). all suspension components imho should come with their own tested MBS, in the intended configuration, i honestly think it is not too much to ask. but that's a different rant

    for myself, i would not use it in a "new" material or some material i find "suspicious", without the ability to do proper load testing first (not just body weight).

    the lapp hitch (bend?) is interesting, i first found out about it here on the forums actually, i didn't get the chance to play with it yet, but it looks intriguing, thanks for reminding me about it.

  5. #15
    cmoulder's Avatar
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    There was some discussion about this in an earlier thread, but when used in a hammock suspension Lapp is a hitch since it is, in essence, tied to a "ring," which is the CL.

    What I like about it is that it can also be used to tie a very quick, reeve-less knot, which I frequently use on a tarp ridge line and sometimes on guy lines.

    Found a pic of a longer hang with a short suspension and Lapp. No faith or hope required—it works!

    Five Basic Principles of Going Lighter (not me... the great Cam Honan of OZ) Instagram (me!)

    “To equip a pedestrian with shelter, bedding, utensils, food, and other necessities, in a pack so light and small that he can carry it without overstrain, is really a fine art.” ~ Horace Kephart, 1906

  6. #16
    Senior Member rweb82's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanok View Post
    yeah, exactly: it's been used for ever (in different materials though, very different), it works fine... for most hangers, except if it's ultralight webbing, etc. there's too many variables and disclaimers, and the "data" we have from field testing in 2 inch manila rope over the centuries should be regarded with some skepticism when extrapolating to 3mm dyneema dental floss and webbing that wheighs less per foot than some shoelaces of that same era.i'm not saying the becket hitch is bankrupt, i'm just saying i would not recommend it to anyone, meaning "if you have to ask, then no, use something else", if you know what you're doing and have the understanding as to when it's expected to work and how, then fine, but i'm at the point where i would rather not give it to a beginner as the first method to learn (and that makes me sad). and yes, i do hold the unpopular opinion that hammock manufacturers (or is it outfitters these days) should test webbing that they sell for suspension in the intended configuration, and state the configuration tested and the failure mode and load where it fails. just passing on the manufacturer provided MBS of the webbing won't do (or it shouldn't). all suspension components imho should come with their own tested MBS, in the intended configuration, i honestly think it is not too much to ask. but that's a different rant

    for myself, i would not use it in a "new" material or some material i find "suspicious", without the ability to do proper load testing first (not just body weight).

    the lapp hitch (bend?) is interesting, i first found out about it here on the forums actually, i didn't get the chance to play with it yet, but it looks intriguing, thanks for reminding me about it.
    I feel like there is a possible "disclaimer" for practically every suspension option available.

    Whoopie slings: Hang on the knot, not on the toggle. Be sure to milk the bury.
    MSH/Toggle: Hang on the knot, not on the toggle.
    MSH/Carabiner: Hardware can fail.
    Cinch Buckles: Will slip with UL webbing. Make sure the CL stays centered on the buckle. May cause abrasion on CLs over long period of time. Hardware can fail.
    Daisy Chain Webbing: Loops can fail over time.

    No matter what suspension method folks choose to hang with, it is important that we always understand both the strengths and limitations of each. It is up to the user to do his/her due diligence to ensure safety when hanging in the woods. And this philosophy must be applied to all aspects of camping, in general. FWIW, I still think the simplest suspension for a complete noob is daisy chain webbing and carabiners. There is no learning curve on how to hook everything up. It just takes some time to figure out what height to set everything.

  7. #17
    cmoulder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rweb82 View Post
    I feel like there is a possible "disclaimer" for practically every suspension option available.

    Whoopie slings: Hang on the knot, not on the toggle. Be sure to milk the bury.
    MSH/Toggle: Hang on the knot, not on the toggle.
    MSH/Carabiner: Hardware can fail.
    Cinch Buckles: Will slip with UL webbing. Make sure the CL stays centered on the buckle. May cause abrasion on CLs over long period of time. Hardware can fail.
    Daisy Chain Webbing: Loops can fail over time.

    No matter what suspension method folks choose to hang with, it is important that we always understand both the strengths and limitations of each. It is up to the user to do his/her due diligence to ensure safety when hanging in the woods. And this philosophy must be applied to all aspects of camping, in general. FWIW, I still think the simplest suspension for a complete noob is daisy chain webbing and carabiners. There is no learning curve on how to hook everything up. It just takes some time to figure out what height to set everything.
    ^^^^ So much, this! ^^^^

    There are many things about my shelter/clothing/cook kits that I do not recommend for beginners.

    When just starting out in hammocking, something foolproof like daisy chains or Beetle buckles (with a heavier poly webbing) are good choices. I began my hammock education with whoopies but was always very mindful of the toggle/knot issue.
    Five Basic Principles of Going Lighter (not me... the great Cam Honan of OZ) Instagram (me!)

    “To equip a pedestrian with shelter, bedding, utensils, food, and other necessities, in a pack so light and small that he can carry it without overstrain, is really a fine art.” ~ Horace Kephart, 1906

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantom Grappler View Post
    It would be interesting to see number pounds of pull will break various commonly used straps while tied with becket hitch, Lapp hitch, becket hitch with extra wrap.
    But if all the tester does is tie each knot exactly as shown on knot apps, without then dressing the knots and hand tightening them real tight, then those knots will fail at much lower pounds of pull.

    There are many hammock campers, regularly and successfully using the above mentioned knots.
    Those knots are passing field testing.
    While there have been some fails, I believe almost all those fails are due to user error.
    I like your theory because it allows me to keep doing what I want anyway, lol… essentially if you dress and hand-tighten you feel there is a minimal chance of slippage?

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmoulder View Post
    There was some discussion about this in an earlier thread, but when used in a hammock suspension Lapp is a hitch since it is, in essence, tied to a "ring," which is the CL.

    What I like about it is that it can also be used to tie a very quick, reeve-less knot, which I frequently use on a tarp ridge line and sometimes on guy lines.

    Found a pic of a longer hang with a short suspension and Lapp. No faith or hope required—it works!
    agreed, on a CL it qualifies as a hitch, what i meant by "bend?" was "i wonder how it does as a bend too". as i said, the lapp is intriguing, thanks for sharing your experience with it

    Quote Originally Posted by rweb82 View Post
    I feel like there is a possible "disclaimer" for practically every suspension option available.

    Whoopie slings: Hang on the knot, not on the toggle. Be sure to milk the bury.
    MSH/Toggle: Hang on the knot, not on the toggle.
    MSH/Carabiner: Hardware can fail.
    Cinch Buckles: Will slip with UL webbing. Make sure the CL stays centered on the buckle. May cause abrasion on CLs over long period of time. Hardware can fail.
    Daisy Chain Webbing: Loops can fail over time.

    No matter what suspension method folks choose to hang with, it is important that we always understand both the strengths and limitations of each. It is up to the user to do his/her due diligence to ensure safety when hanging in the woods. And this philosophy must be applied to all aspects of camping, in general. FWIW, I still think the simplest suspension for a complete noob is daisy chain webbing and carabiners. There is no learning curve on how to hook everything up. It just takes some time to figure out what height to set everything.
    it seem's we're in a mildly violent agreement :P.

    that's basically what i'm saying too, this is why i strive to think of ways to make these suspension options (many of which are quite beautiful just from an engineering standpoint) more bullet proof and less prone to user error, for instance. i also can't help thinking of what kind of data the average hanger should have access to, and given most people don't have access to testing rigs that can pull thousands of pounds force to determine what fails/slips when and how, i think it is reasonable to expect the outfitters who sell not just materials for diy, but also ready made suspensions, to state at what load and in what way the given configuration fails, not what the webbing manufacturer provides as the MBS of the webbing. i go further and think about designing a testing rig that anyone could build with not much cost (enough so that it would be worth it for an outfiter, and not prohibitive, even if for an individual camper it wouldn't make sense), and designing testing procedures that would make sense and would be simple enough to not make it a chore. i just can't help myself thinking of such things, that's all.

    as i said, i like the becket a lot, and i'm sad to have to relegate it to "only if you know what you're doing" use. and i do agree with you about daisy chain suspension, even if i hate almost everything about it, it's indeed the easiest to understand at first glance.

    Quote Originally Posted by cmoulder View Post
    ^^^^ So much, this! ^^^^

    There are many things about my shelter/clothing/cook kits that I do not recommend for beginners.

    When just starting out in hammocking, something foolproof like daisy chains or Beetle buckles (with a heavier poly webbing) are good choices. I began my hammock education with whoopies but was always very mindful of the toggle/knot issue.
    you do make a fair point: there is such a thing as a "talented beginner", who can be trusted with a more intricate setup, but that's something which needs to be assessed carefully and individually (written exams probably not necessary though :P )

    i don't want to spoil anyone's fun, i'm all for experimenting, i myself sometimes ponder if the exploration part is not a major factor why i'm so into hammocks, i'm just expressing concerns with honesty, in the hope that it might help everyone experiment safer, that's all

  10. #20
    Senior Member rweb82's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanok View Post
    it seem's we're in a mildly violent agreement :P.
    No violence here, lol! I just wanted to make a point that all suspension options come with a unique set of pros & cons. Just in case any hammock newbies are perusing this thread, I wouldn't want them to believe that one suspension option is inferior or superior based off one conversation.

    I do agree that it would be nice to have more empirical data surrounding the strength of all the various types of materials being used in this application. I am not an engineer, so it probably shouldn't be me doing the research!

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