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  1. #51
    cougarmeat's Avatar
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    "outliers" means they are outside the satistical norm - not to be confused with "out and out liars" which means they are members of some news media or are politicians.

    Another phrase would be "at the ends of the bell curve" - again referring to statistics where common occurrences are charted. A large cluster of different events happens often with a few other events happening seldom. So the chart looks like a bell (or derby hat) - the common cases in the middle (tall bars: happens a lot) and the corner cases at the ends (i.e. corners, short bars; happens seldom).
    Last edited by cougarmeat; 09-20-2021 at 15:31.
    In order to see what few have seen, you must go where few have gone. And DO what few have done.

  2. #52
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    thank you both (both for the ideas of how to express it, and for pointing out it's strange, thanks Phantom for speaking up about it)

    yes, "outliers" is what i was looking for, that agrees with me somehow. the other options are nice too, they work well in less specific cases (a bit more general use)

    regarding the politicians: unfortunately, english can be quite confusing in some areas, liers and liars is one such area of distress.

    thanks for the help, and the patience

    ps: i can't promise i won't slip up and mention a corner case or two here and there, exceptionally, but hopefully those will be, ahem, the outliers

  3. #53
    Phantom Grappler's Avatar
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    Dumb question -- where do you put the line for your tarp: around the tree or the hammock strap?

    Thanks Cougarmeat and Nanok, even though I was born in US, my grades in English classes were always D minus. Nanok, your command of foreign languages is impressive.

    I’m somewhat of a “corner case”, doing asbestos I can.

    Nanok and Cougarmeat, here is word to use around campfire while hammock camping.
    Aaaaaaaaiiiiiight
    (Alright) helps me communicate when I have nothing to say
    Asbestos, the now known carcinogen, instead of
    As best as (I can)

    Thanks

    No need to stop using your phrases, keep being you—it makes you authentic and Continental
    Last edited by Phantom Grappler; 09-20-2021 at 15:12.

  4. #54
    LowTech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanok View Post
    ooh, i'm so sorry. see, my command of the english language is extremely...negociable. i am not formally trained in speaking it (as if you couldn't tell), so all my knowledge is mixed and probably doesn't match properly the peculiarities or patterns of any of the multiple sides of this particular pond.

    i am so used to this particular expression i thought it was common place. it basically means "special cases" which are bound by some conditions which are not statistically likely, but they are still within the range which one cannot ignore (well, sometimes you might chose to, and cut the corners as it were). for instance, the trees being so close together that they are "at the limit" of fitting the hammock is such case, for me (i don't often encounter it, and i tend to prefer strangely long hangs rather than strangely short -- just more options), but for osmebody else this might be the rule of the day, and if i was in that position i would probably design some solution so my setup works perfectly under the most constrained conditions, and then my long hangs, although not corner cases as such, perhaps, become much less important. (though hard to imagine a place where trees are always close together and at the same time such aligned that you cannot "skip" them to make for a longer hang, but i've seen stranger things, so why not)

    how would you say this on your side of the pond (without writing a story, or using my strange geeky slang)?
    We have to deal w/ short hangs sometimes as the trees are in clumps along the areas where water runs (when it rains). Height for straps can be an issue as well. You can see in the photo of our last hang.
    Straight to the huggers and I had to wrap one of them (4') around an extra time or two.
    I also have some trees that are weak and need to add extra support.

    Also, you speak better and clearer English than most Americans.

  5. #55
    cougarmeat's Avatar
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    Thank you for the spelling correction. My posts usually have to be edited and edited. I know "liers" looked funny - but then again, it wasn't so wrong as a poetic license extension of outliers. It's not as bad as when I wanted to refer to a lady's skeg - the rudder/fin that drops down from her kayak - and instead posted "sag", which had a whole other meaning.

    Corrections are appreciated. Unfortunately, though errors can be, within a short window, corrected in the original post they live forever in quoted text.
    In order to see what few have seen, you must go where few have gone. And DO what few have done.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phantom Grappler View Post
    (...)
    Aaaaaaaaiiiiiight
    (Alright) helps me communicate when I have nothing to say
    oh, i do like this one a lot. may i use it (only around the campfire, and with attribution (C)phantom

    No need to stop using your phrases, keep being you—it makes you authentic and Continental
    ah, continental sounds almost pretentious, although not quite british. it might be just about right, though perhaps a bit flattering to me. i shall have to take it as a compliment

    Quote Originally Posted by LowTech View Post
    We have to deal w/ short hangs sometimes as the trees are in clumps along the areas where water runs (when it rains). Height for straps can be an issue as well. You can see in the photo of our last hang.
    Straight to the huggers and I had to wrap one of them (4') around an extra time or two.
    I also have some trees that are weak and need to add extra support.
    i see. i shall get to work then. could you give me an estimate of the distance between trees, and your hammock ridgeline or hammock length, please.

    Quote Originally Posted by cougarmeat View Post
    Thank you for the spelling correction. My posts usually have to be edited and edited. I know "liers" looked funny - but then again, it wasn't so wrong as a poetic license extension of outliers. It's not as bad as when I wanted to refer to a lady's skeg - the rudder/fin that drops down from her kayak - and instead posted "sag", which had a whole other meaning.

    Corrections are appreciated. Unfortunately, though errors can be, within a short window, corrected in the original post they live forever in quoted text.
    hmm, i not only did not intend, but was not aware of making any correction, your text and meaning was clear, and i appreciate the pun (i would not have thought of it myself, so at least as a non-native speaker, i find it enriching to my language arsenal). sorry if it came across somehow else.

    let me confess something, btw: you might have noticed (...) i tend to write somewhat longer posts (i imagine some by now might visually recognise the shape "ugggh, nanok again, <yaaawn>"), but, anyway, back to the main confession: i have to copy/paste my text before clicking the "post" button, otherwise i risk my session will have expired (it most often is the case), and my text will be gone through the login process (i know there are more elegant ways to deal with this, but i couldn't be bothered so far). part of the reason is that i have to re-read multiple times, for typos, spelling errors, and, most importantly, lack of clarity or hard to follow phrases or thoughts. this takes time even when the text is not so long.

    i guess my point is: i'm not so bothered when i make spelling errors, i'm annoyed if i do, and i try to avoid them. but it's a forum, we're chatting here, not writing academic work. i am, however, infuriated when i realize my phrasing and my thoughts are unclear, confusing, or hard to follow, especially that i usually only write if i think i have something worth sharing. it feels like i robbed everybody by writing something that doesn't "work". your post was clear, insightful and entertaining as a bonus, so i'd call that a success

  7. #57
    LowTech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanok View Post

    i see. i shall get to work then. could you give me an estimate of the distance between trees, and your hammock ridgeline or hammock length, please.
    Would be nice if it was that easy. Often if I find a couple trees that are big enough, and of a kind that are strong enough to hold us (problem#1), they usually aren't a good distance apart (p#2). Either too close or to far apart, by a lot.
    Next issue is the fact that the space between them is usually filled w/ other plants and small trees taking advantage of the shade (p#3). The pictured hang happened in an area of "dispersed camping" that had been used by tenters, so it was open between the trees.

    If all of those factors happen to be perfect, or even close , then we still have to deal w/ the fact that "trees" around here don't go for height and prefer to go for wide. Attaching a strap at 6' above ground to anything &gt; 4" dia is a challenge (p#4).
    To get "real" trees we have to go up in elevation about 4K'. Even the AZ hang is up above the desert at about 5-6K.

    At this point I've pretty much thrown out any of the reasons I thought of for not getting something like the Tensa Solo. Finding one tree is soooo much easier. As it is I pack some form of stand in the rig 90% of the time we go out . . . just in case.

    Of course by now we've gone so far off the rails of this thread that a mod should probably put these last several post in a new thread . . . I don't know, maybe something like "Challenging hangs and the English language".
    Last edited by LowTech; 09-21-2021 at 21:32.

  8. #58
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    right. thanks for the details

    here's what would be my first thoughts on how to handle it (i told you i have a problem...)

    - i tend to lean towards the "too long hang" rather than too short (it is also "statistically better", as in most cases it means you hve more options to chose the sturdier tries)

    - one thing that helps for hangs that are long (but still within the same district) is to have a tree pedal/soft step, as i described elsewhere. basically, you have a third treestrap, and you use it to attach a loop of webbing to it, to give you a leg up (safely). this way you can put the treestrap much higher on the tree, while staying safe and confortable
    - it obviously helps to use a ucr based suspension or similar, complete with some additional extensions (dog bones or such), to allow for very long hangs (ucr/whoopie and dogbones because very broad range of hang distances can be achieved with very little weight and, perhaps more importantly for some, very little added bulk)
    - for the "cross districts" hangs, i would consider using an intermediate pole (or sturdy stick or two, if such can be found) in order to support the suspension line midway. the pole, if only one, would have to be guyed to ground at least by two guy lines, to prevent it from flopping down. this is worth considering because this pole/stick will only handle the compressive load, to which a straight sturdy pole can be very very strong (so no bending forces, at least not much), the rest is supported by the far away, solid tree you chose.
    - of course, having a stand like a tensa is the ultimate "solves all" solution, if you can carry it (maybe even half a tensa, though i think it can be a bit tricky to make a half tensa and a tree to work well)
    - as a side feature, i'd go for a treestrap that allows for very large trees with minimum webbing length (like the one i designed and tested, and have to document )

    - for the occasional short hang, i'd make sure the straps allow for easily connecting the hammock directly to them,
    - i'd perhaps carry spare straps to rig up multiple small trees in a "load sharing" fashion (and spend some time learning how to rig multiple anchor points, i recommend mountain rescuers, highliners, or spelunkers, whatever group/trainings you have easier access to).

    one of the things i like most about hammock camping is the "leave no trace" part, for instance how i can leave the ground basically undisturbed where i camped. i avoid as much as possible clearing undergrowth, weeds and such, whenever i can. i will go out of my way to not have to do that. i carry lightweight twine or such with me, so i can "temporarily negotiate" space sharing with the odd sapling or bush, and when i'm done and am leaving, i remove the twine and the local inhabitant can go back to normal life, almost as if i was never there. no cutting or trampling stuff for me (so, with that, i cannot help. i guess people use machetes for that)

    i suppose the original poster of this thread has long since secured a supply of popcorn, and gave up all hope of this thread being anywhere remotely related to what he asked. hope it's somewhat entertaining at least, though

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by nanok View Post
    i suppose the original poster of this thread has long since secured a supply of popcorn, and gave up all hope of this thread being anywhere remotely related to what he asked. hope it's somewhat entertaining at least, though
    I have enjoyed the thread and all the content in it! I thought it might just be a really dumb question, but it seems to have triggered some interesting conversations at least.

    thanks to all!

  10. #60
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    it's good if you're enjoying it. i guess it's a bit of a lesson too: never apologize or feel preemptively "dumb" for a question you ask, if you thought about it and still think it's worth asking, then let it out, especially when in good company

    as you can see, this is far from being a dumb question, in fact it's an insightful one, and imho it doesn't get asked enough. as you've seen i've already started a similar discussion about one year ago , and it turned out it's not so obvious to grasp, even after explaining it.

    so thank you for asking. and i'll say one more thing, which i know might be very controversial: the more i look into this, the more i think the "2 inch requirements" in some natural parks in the US these days were most likely caused by tarp ridgelines (dyneema and "straight"), attached directly to trees, not due to any failing or lack of suitability of 1 inch webbing for hammock suspension. sadly, that means the rules are not only inconvenient, but also useless for (their intended purpose of) improving the situation. and frankly, i think we're still a "niche" enough community, that it is our duty to solve the problem, we should not expect park rangers, park administrative boards and so on to figure out something they have no expertise for, and which is not obvious even to the most experienced of us, but instead do our research, explain what we found, educate our users to do better; and yes, even offer to help educate park rangers, so they know how stuff works, and can help inexperienced hikers, and see (real) problems that need to be addressed. but i digress (again).

    short version: use the treestraps for the tarp ridgeline too, it's good.

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