That's pretty much what I was doing in porch mode other than the fact that I wrapped the stake, a round spike, once before making an adjustable friction hitch back up the line. I needed the easy adjustability.Originally Posted by OlTrailDog
The problem was that the clove hitch on the pole would get pulled so tight that it took work to release it, tight enough that I couldn't even slide it off the end of the pole.
"Sent w/o me knowing"
Where you want on guy line, form a bight and tie an overhand knot with the doubled line (bight)
Now you have a fixed loop
Now using that fixed loop, tie a three or four wrap prusik around the pole.
Both ends of your fixed loop can go in different directions-one to stake and other elsewhere.
If you are able substitute an alpine butterfly loop instead of overhand knot. It will resist stresses and pulls in all directions better than overhand knot on a bight.
I hope with all these solutions, one or more will work for you.
ok, i had to test the rat tail idea, as i came up with it just as i was reading your problem. it does work, as expected, but also as expected, it is a bit annoying how it tends to unravel before tension is applied.
long story short, by playing around i arrived at making a braided pile hitch, which is basically a combination of the pile and the rat tail (yeah, very imaginative). i like it so far, this is what i will be using myself from now on (so thanks for the nudge to get there).
basically, when you tie the pile hitch close to the end of the pole, leave a long bight, and after dropping it over the pole (last move of the pile hitch) twist, drop it again, twist, drop it over again. repeat as needed (depends on the guyline and hkw smooth the pole is, but i wouldn't go more than 3 times or so, i was testing on a very smooth and rather thin aluminium pole, so a bit of a worse case scenario)
the braiding has some magic properties (that's what makes hitches like the VT so special), when loaded it stretches along the pole and grabs tight, but this means that when you want to slide it, you just grab the top of it and collapse it back towards the rest of the knot, it works well even under load). hope it makes sense, i'll post some pic later.
btw, hint: it is very easy to slide it on the pole by grabbing it, as noted, although it stays put under the line tension, so always tie it very close to the end of the pole, and then slide it to position it where you want, makes it much easier to tie, than if you try to tie it "in place" (less cinching up to do)
pics before load applied, and with load:
20230610_145317.jpg
20230610_145408.jpg
Last edited by nanok; 06-10-2023 at 08:01.
Very interesting nanok! Similarities to Icicle Hitch, VT or Valdotain Tresse, and Multiple Pile Hitch.
Multiple Pile Hitch is found on my YouTube video:
David Hughes No Knot Tie Outs at 3:30 to 5:52
Multiple pile hitch has incredible resistance to pull along a poles long axis.
Attention must be paid to direction it is tied.
On a smooth stake I wrap the bight from top to bottom. This makes a better grip to resist sliding upwards off of a ground stake.
Might be better to wrap bight in opposite direction on a hiking pole when using multiple pile hitch. I don’t know.
Nanok you are a great innovator!
Left the slipped, and locked, clove hitch on all day yesterday and through the night. This morning when it was calm I pulled the poles to see how easy it was to breakdown. Even though the line running through the slipped loop kept it from cinching up super tight it still required a bit of work to loosen up and then as mentioned previously I had to feed the end back through the loop. Not horrible but I do like leaving the guylines attached to the stakes after I pull the poles out, either to lower the side or just taking it down in the wind. A toggle would change that.
I then put them back up using the pile hitch (I'll admit to smiling a bit idiot like).
@nanok, like you said, the right tool for the job. Simplicity, minimal line usage, and adaptable. The multiple twisting of the loop makes sense for slippery poles or ones that don't have a "shelf" to help w/ preventing the line sliding down, as does the making more turns around the pole before putting the loop over the top.
Thank you everyone, I'm glad that I got the people I envisioned weighing in on this when I wrote it. All great input and useful concepts. Now back to playing w/ my ground staking experiments.
"Sent w/o me knowing"
Reading all this was like breaking code...but I learned some stuff.
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I understand your approach and I experimented with sliding friction knots on the stake. But in the end I find I default to simply retying the slippery clove hitch as it seemed just as quick to accomplish. Albeit, it doesn't have all the sex appeal of a sliding friction knot. On the porch pole clove hitch, I'm tying it around the handles of hiking poles. Therefore it is a large enough knot to be easily loosen.
Ah, code, now I see the problem. Here I thought it was my mental acuity, and hence, ability to mentally follow the twists, turns, loops, and bights was diminishing. Really liked the knots video as they were quite illustrative.
heh, glad you like it. yeah, calling it the right tool for the job sounds a bit cocky, but you see what i meant.
when i see people recommending to wrap the guyline around the pole "a few times" my mind screams in defense of the pile hitch (it's even easier and quicher to tie). the clove hitch is even worse, as you have found, as it is a "binding hitch" basically (more suitable to hold a bundle together than other purposes).
the friction capabilities are a bit more than fancyfulness imho, it makes it a complete solution for the job (hence my experiments with multiple turns and braids as pictured above), as it means you can place the line anywhere on the pole, you can adjust your porchmode in seconds without having to retie anything, you can even use the poles for leverage if you so fancy, assuming the poles are sturdy sticks for instance (one pile hitch high on the stick, to the stake, one lower, to the tarp, handy if your ground anchors are a bit sketchy). another use for this property is to add tension to the line in a pinch, especially when the line is already taut, and needs just a tiny nudge to get it where you want: as you slide the hitch up the pole, deflecting it from a straight line, you add a lot of tension with very little effort (so use wisely, thankfully it becomes hard to slide it when there's lots of tension, so there's some built in safety to this method)
one important thing to remember is the pile hitch is asymetric, and as with most "very simple" knots, the asymetry is essentials in how it functions: in this case, there's a huge difference if you pull down along the pole on one strand or the other, if pulling on the "lower" strand, it will hold, if on the upper, it will slide, it will also slide if pulling down on both (especially without braids or multiple turns). long story short: lower strand to the ground anchor, upper strand to the tarp, is usually what you want in this particular application, if in doubt test by pulling down on each before commiting, it's very easy to retie and correct it if you find it is the opposite of what you wanted.
long live the humble little pile hitch, i think it diserves a bit more love especially from tarp warriors
Last edited by nanok; 06-11-2023 at 03:37.
oh, i'd like to see what you'd make of that, i'm sure we'd never look at a pile hitch the same way again. "some like their porchmode pile hitched? pile your hitch? hitch.." i better shut up. hope it was somewhat entertaining, i always wonder who entertains the entertainers?
phantom: glad if you like it, do give it a try, i haven't quite tested it enough yet (and if i'm not mistaken, it's either uncommon, or even worthy to be pabtised "the lowtech braided pile hitch", as this might be its first public appearence)
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