Last night we had winds upto 80 mph around here, glad I wasn't camping
Last night we had winds upto 80 mph around here, glad I wasn't camping
I've been in some pretty serious winds... supposedly 40+mph gusting, not sure if my tarp ever actually experienced that though.
a needle-hole at a fabric edge is where most of my tarps failed (when they weren't punctured by falling branches)
I assume it's due to the stitching being stressed, maybe unevenly so. it's not like we're checking guylines with a tension meter when we setup, so it wouldn't be difficult to unevenly tension the tarp fabric, then all it would take is a little something extra in just the wrong place, and pop goes the fabric...
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Hey. Does this mean the ridgeline is more likely to break before the tarp?Originally Posted by cougarmeat
I got broadsided last night by winds that snapped the d-ring on my hex tarp. I was extremely lucky the tarp survived and could be tucked away...but unfortunately my best camping spots are very often subject to brutal gusts and rainstorms from changing directions and I would prefer a snapped ridgeline and a tactical retreat rather than a torn tarp I can't repair...
I currently use x2 10 foot 2.2mm braided cord larked onto d-rings and adjust them with dutch stingerz that are also clipped onto the d-ring. the 2.2 is actually too thick to use the stingerz properly, but i like it because there are very fat trees where i live and it gives me the option to lark directly around them instead of the d-ring and still be easily adjusted while only messing with about 10 foot of rope...but now all i can think of is how long the other d ring will last before the tarp becomes the weakest link vs the wind....so if a crl would offer another point of redundancy, I'd opt for the extra hassle of dealing with 30-40' guylines in tempestuous weather tbh
or if you have any other advice for reducing tension on the tarp itself i'd appreciate it! I love hammocks and I love our weather but they aren't always conducive lol
Spaced, the breaking or tensile strength of 2.2mm Dyneema - I'm not sure that's what you are using when you say "... 2.2 mm braided cord ..." is about 1100 lbs. If you are in a wind that can break that, then I'm guessing you have more concerns than your tarp.
What the continuous ridgeline means is not that it is more likely to break before the tarp, it's that it's NOT likely to break at all.
Picture this: In your setup, you have a tree + cord around the tree + continued to your tarp + the connection to the tarp + tarp fabric along the tarp ridgeline + (repeat for the other side). A couple of potential breaking points.
Now picture this: Forget about the tarp for a sec. You have the cord around the tree, setup so it comes off the side of the tree, not the middle. It goes across to the other tree, around it, and anchors back on itself via some hardware (Figure-9, technical toggle, Alien loop, Dutch wasp, etc.) that allows you to pull it tight.
Like clothes hanging from a clothesline, you hang your tarp off that cord ridgeline. Some use various types of sliding knots (prusik knots). Some use hardware like NAMA claws.
The wind is still going to blow on your tarp. But the dynamics on the tarp ridgeline will be different. Also, for me anyway, setting the tarp in place is much easier because I do not have to loosen/tighten two ends as I center the tarp. Once the ridgeline is up (the tarp is already connected to it), you side the tarp end, that's beyond the hammock end, to the right spot (about a foot beyond the hammock end) and then slide the other end of the tarp beyond its hammock end.
Over/Under? The lore (not necessarily science) is you want to suspend the tarp under the ridgeline to minimize abrasion/chaffing that might occur if the tarp's ridgeline on your cord. More importantly, if the cord ridgeline is under the tarp, you have to pay much more attention to having a solid water block so rainwater doesn't run down the cord under the tarp. Also, the cord over the ridgeline makes a nice place to hang clothes or dry out quilts during a sunny day. In the winter, on the other hand, I might be more prone to run the ridgeline under the tarp. I'm not concerned about rain. I'm concerned about a big-o-lump-o-snow falling from an overhead bough. The line under the tarp will give it more support against any snow build-up.
Bungee/no bungee? Remember, this is all personal preference encouraged by individual experiences. Imagine you have a 5 x 5 piece of material (SilNylon, SilPoly, Dyneema, etc.) It's hung vertically with all four corners strung real tight - no give. Now blast that sucker with a big gust of wind. That material, the corner connections, have to take it all - the full brunt. Now instead of a non-stretch connecting cord, you have shock-cord that has give to it. Because there is some give, as the wind force builds up. the flat plane of material can flex and allow some of that wind to spill away. That's why some people put a length of shock-cord on their guy tie-outs (not the ridgeline connection).
The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly. Note that is essentially holding a slingshot in your hand, loading the rubber strap with a pointed object, and pulling it back. Hey, what is life without risk? Also, even without the shock-cord, if the wind rips that guyline stake out of the ground, it might flail around anyway. Some people run the shock-cord parallel to the static guyline such that the static line limits the shock-cord stretch. Say you have six to eight inches of shock-cord that can stretch 100% of its length. But you don't want to max it out. ... Nah, this is getting to difficult to describe with words - just tie it to the static guyline so the static line doesn't let it elongate more that 80% of it's maximum stretch.
The point is, if the shock-cord does break, the static guyline is still running from the tarp to the stake.
I don't know about big the "very fat" trees are, but it's just a little math to figure out what you need to surround the trees and run between them.
Broadside/parallel/snakeskins: When I first started "playing" in the wind, after two occasions, the score was Wind 2, cougarmeat 0. I was trying to set up broadside to the wind and I had the full tarp outside its stuff sack trying to set it up. Anytime I tried to corral it in, it became a huge 11 ft parachute pulling sideways. Once I started using snakeskin, I could set my continuous ridgeline, then expose a little of the tarp at a time, guying the sides as they came out. But still, when I was done, here was this huge wide surface area doing that Bob Seger's song action, "Pushing against the wind ...". My tarp had panel pulls on the sides and I talked to them. I asked, "What about you guys?" They said, "Us! Our job is just to pull the wall of the tarp out a bit to give you more interior space. We may be able to help a bit, but know the force will be pulling right on our stitching." So instead, I oriented the tarp so it was, as much as possible, parallel to the wind. As the wind went over the tarp sides, instead of pushing in, it gave it lift. I had to re-angle my tarp stakes to handle the upward pull. Yes, the wind wanted to go "through" middle of the tarp, but the support trees, plus doors or beak, plus perhaps a small slant on the tarp ridgeline (not strung perfectly level) minimized that.
So - the next windy day take your tarp out and try a few adjustments. And don't tell your UL buddies that you are carrying an extra 10 ft of 2.2mm dyneema
Last edited by cougarmeat; 07-05-2024 at 19:22.
In order to see what few have seen, you must go where few have gone. And DO what few have done.
hey thanks for this, great response.Spaced, the breaking or tensile strength of 2.2mm Dyneema - I'm not sure that's what you are using when you say "... 2.2 mm braided cord ..." is about 1100 lbs. If you are in a wind that can break that, then I'm guessing you have more concerns than your tarp.
What the continuous ridgeline means is not that it is more likely to break before the tarp, it's that it's NOT likely to break at all.
Picture this: In your setup, you have a tree + cord around the tree + continued to your tarp + the connection to the tarp + tarp fabric along the tarp ridgeline + (repeat for the other side). A couple of potential breaking points.
Now picture this: Forget about the tarp for a sec. You have the cord around the tree, setup so it comes off the side of the tree, not the middle. It goes across to the other tree, around it, and anchors back on itself via some hardware (Figure-9, technical toggle, Alien loop, Dutch wasp, etc.) that allows you to pull it tight.
Like clothes hanging from a clothesline, you hang your tarp off that cord ridgeline. Some use various types of sliding knots (prusik knots). Some use hardware like NAMA claws.
The wind is still going to blow on your tarp. But the dynamics on the tarp ridgeline will be different. Also, for me anyway, setting the tarp in place is much easier because I do not have to loosen/tighten two ends as I center the tarp. Once the ridgeline is up (the tarp is already connected to it), you side the tarp end, that's beyond the hammock end, to the right spot (about a foot beyond the hammock end) and then slide the other end of the tarp beyond its hammock end.
Over/Under? The lore (not necessarily science) is you want to suspend the tarp under the ridgeline to minimize abrasion/chaffing that might occur if the tarp's ridgeline on your cord. More importantly, if the cord ridgeline is under the tarp, you have to pay much more attention to having a solid water block so rainwater doesn't run down the cord under the tarp. Also, the cord over the ridgeline makes a nice place to hang clothes or dry out quilts during a sunny day. In the winter, on the other hand, I might be more prone to run the ridgeline under the tarp. I'm not concerned about rain. I'm concerned about a big-o-lump-o-snow falling from an overhead bough. The line under the tarp will give it more support against any snow build-up.
Bungee/no bungee? Remember, this is all personal preference encouraged by individual experiences. Imagine you have a 5 x 5 piece of material (SilNylon, SilPoly, Dyneema, etc.) It's hung vertically with all four corners strung real tight - no give. Now blast that sucker with a big gust of wind. That material, the corner connections, have to take it all - the full brunt. Now instead of a non-stretch connecting cord, you have shock-cord that has give to it. Because there is some give, as the wind force builds up. the flat plane of material can flex and allow some of that wind to spill away. That's why some people put a length of shock-cord on their guy tie-outs (not the ridgeline connection).
The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly. Note that is essentially holding a slingshot in your hand, loading the rubber strap with a pointed object, and pulling it back. Hey, what is life without risk? Also, even without the shock-cord, if the wind rips that guyline stake out of the ground, it might flail around anyway. Some people run the shock-cord parallel to the static guyline such that the static line limits the shock-cord stretch. Say you have six to eight inches of shock-cord that can stretch 100% of its length. But you don't want to max it out. ... Nah, this is getting to difficult to describe with words - just tie it to the static guyline so the static line doesn't let it elongate more that 80% of it's maximum stretch.
The point is, if the shock-cord does break, the static guyline is still running from the tarp to the stake.
I don't know about big the "very fat" trees are, but it's just a little math to figure out what you need to surround the trees and run between them.
Broadside/parallel/snakeskins: When I first started "playing" in the wind, after two occasions, the score was Wind 2, cougarmeat 0. I was trying to set up broadside to the wind and I had the full tarp outside its stuff sack trying to set it up. Anytime I tried to corral it in, it became a huge 11 ft parachute pulling sideways. Once I started using snakeskin, I could set my continuous ridgeline, then expose a little of the tarp at a time, guying the sides as they came out. But still, when I was done, here was this huge wide surface area doing that Bob Seger's song action, "Pushing against the wind ...". My tarp had panel pulls on the sides and I talked to them. I asked, "What about you guys?" They said, "Us! Our job is just to pull the wall of the tarp out a bit to give you more interior space. We may be able to help a bit, but know the force will be pulling right on our stitching." So instead, I oriented the tarp so it was, as much as possible, parallel to the wind. As the wind went over the tarp sides, instead of pushing in, it gave it lift. I had to re-angle my tarp stakes to handle the upward pull. Yes, the wind wanted to go "through" middle of the tarp, but the support trees, plus doors or beak, plus perhaps a small slant on the tarp ridgeline (not strung perfectly level) minimized that.
So - the next windy day take your tarp out and try a few adjustments. And don't tell your UL buddies that you are carrying an extra 10 ft of 2.2mm dyneema
i've just got my improvised crl setup using 2mm dyneema with 1.5mm prussiks and 3 dutch hooks holding it all together from above lol. i am definitely going to mod my guylines too because i always thought they were mostly for aesthetics and keeping nylon tarps taut when wet, but i think i understand what you mean about not wanting to exceed the max tension on them if they are being used to destress the entire system under wind. it makes good sense. you don't want them snapping, you just want them pulling everything back into place after they let the tarp dance and malform a bit in the wind. I'm very curious to try this all out now and put it to the test. i don't actually know much about shockcord i just remember seeing a video by shug from years ago i think.
fortunately i routinely tie quick-release knots and use heavy rocks on my guylines so my stakes don't kill something during storms, so adding a bit of elastic force should be no issue. also glad you mentioned the side panels because on the surface, it seems like a good way to reduce the surface area with small angles to deflect the wind, but with a system designed to stretch and deform, they would actually become a hindrance and as you say, place unnecessary force on the center stitching. realistically, longer shockcord = more room to deform tarp = less resistance under stress, right?
and yea, snakeskins are gamechangers in this weather. i actually used them as my primary defense in gales because i could just hide my tarp in seconds and enjoy the incredible atmosphere, unless it also decided to rainin fact i went so far as to get a sock for my hammock from simply light designs... it's super useful for setup and take down on longer trips, but it also stops your hammock turning into a parachute of doom when you're not in it lol
and to answer your questions, yes it was 2.2mm zing-it i was using i think. the silver one that doesn't tangle easily (can you tell how much fun i have with rope in the wind) and the trees are usually fairly trim, half a foot to maybe one or two on average, but there are some silly trees too. like, there's several that are at least six foot in diameter about 30secs from my front door, and many that are much bigger still when you get deep into the forests. of course hanging shouldn't be very restricted, but i often camp with friends who need flat ground for tents and always have my doggo with me, so i very often find myself with one tree i could hug three times over, and another tree that's as wide as a car lol
will hopefully be away again sunday afternoon so i will see how things go and report back. weird to hope for bad weather cuz it does make everything a bit more difficult, but now i wanna see my tarp dance
For me, being in my hammock and having a strong wind rock me to sleep - no rain - is great when you can get it. Sounds like you picked up everything I was trying to say. Hands-on experimentation is better than any word clarification.
Sometimes you need the long straps:
BelizeTreeScaled.jpg
In order to see what few have seen, you must go where few have gone. And DO what few have done.
no. but it makes it more convenient to adjust the tarp, including the tension on it (so indirectly, it makes it more likely you will not endup overtightening). i would say it is highly recommended to use instead of a split ridgeline, especially in high winds. dyneema is light, good quality braided PP is even lighter, and also very cheap.
indeed i do. in short, you know how everybody tells you to setup the ridgeline lower than the treestraps, and pull it really tight to keep it straight, and use dyneema cause it doesn't stretch? that's wrong, if you care about reducing tension/dealing with heavy gusty winds. tie the ridgeline high (higher than the hammock suspension, on the tree, or at least as high; i usually just use the treestraps themselves), so you'll get a similar angle for the tarp ridgeline ("tarp suspension") as for the hammock suspension;or if you have any other advice for reducing tension on the tarp itself i'd appreciate it! I love hammocks and I love our weather but they aren't always conducive lol
because of the jo'metry (technical term) of it, it will make for a more stable (more prone to going back to original shape), much stronger tensile structure, while using less tension. use thin (2-3mm max) braided nylon, or PP if you want light, for the ridgeline (it will be strong enough, and stretchy enough to absorb some movement without overtensioning), and keep the ridgeline above the tarp, so that the tarp can tension properly and take the shape it "wants" (which is not quite that of an aframe, when you tension it).
the advice to go out and play in windy conditions is great. yes, do that, there's something you can only learn like that, and that's the aerodynamics of a tarp in such conditions. perhaps play with a cheap poly tarp from the hardware store,not your fancy expensive tarp. you'll become the local windy tarp guru in no time
see the levitating tarp for a few pics and more explanations
hey nanok, thanks! just how stretchy is stretchy?no. but it makes it more convenient to adjust the tarp, including the tension on it (so indirectly, it makes it more likely you will not endup overtightening). i would say it is highly recommended to use instead of a split ridgeline, especially in high winds. dyneema is light, good quality braided PP is even lighter, and also very cheap.
indeed i do. in short, you know how everybody tells you to setup the ridgeline lower than the treestraps, and pull it really tight to keep it straight, and use dyneema cause it doesn't stretch? that's wrong, if you care about reducing tension/dealing with heavy gusty winds. tie the ridgeline high (higher than the hammock suspension, on the tree, or at least as high; i usually just use the treestraps themselves), so you'll get a similar angle for the tarp ridgeline ("tarp suspension") as for the hammock suspension;
because of the jo'metry (technical term) of it, it will make for a more stable (more prone to going back to original shape), much stronger tensile structure, while using less tension. use thin (2-3mm max) braided nylon, or PP if you want light, for the ridgeline (it will be strong enough, and stretchy enough to absorb some movement without overtensioning), and keep the ridgeline above the tarp, so that the tarp can tension properly and take the shape it "wants" (which is not quite that of an aframe, when you tension it).
the advice to go out and play in windy conditions is great. yes, do that, there's something you can only learn like that, and that's the aerodynamics of a tarp in such conditions. perhaps play with a cheap poly tarp from the hardware store,not your fancy expensive tarp. you'll become the local windy tarp guru in no time
see the levitating tarp for a few pics and more explanations
i'm going to try hooking my tarp to my straps this weekend so wanted to check that the guylines will keep the ridgeline taught, right? since if the guylines were loose there would be a lot of slack in the ridgeline...or are you using REALLY stretchy ridgeline that can stay taught between your straps and stretch down to a 30 degree angle when under tension? prefer the idea of avoiding thin rope on trees if i can help it
ofc after last week's gales this week has been clear skies and sunburn for days so i haven't had a chance to put anything to test yet and still fine tuning lol
Spaced, You might be confusing "stretchy" with movement. There is no stretch in a ridgeline made with LashIt/zingIt. There can be movement if you put enough slack in the ridgeline (and shock-corded guylines) to allow it.
In order to see what few have seen, you must go where few have gone. And DO what few have done.
i think i misunderstood nanok and thought that more line = more area to spread stress, but now it seems instead the ridgeline itself should be slack before it is staked out in order to allow for greater movement during high wind, and it doesn't matter if it has any actual stretch, so long as the guylines do, right?
things always seem easier in my head lol
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