Illustration - Vapor Barrier Liners (VBL)

**OlTrailDog** · 01-23-2018, 20:06

Originally Posted by OneClick

I'm glad I haven't experienced that. It's nice to air them out even if it's just for a few seconds. Once a day was plenty for me. No odor or excess sweat, which seems weird, but that's just how it works. At night my feet get plenty of airing out...8 hours at minimum, a lot more if I'm just relaxing in the morning before putting VB socks back on. And at night, a quick wipe-down with rubbing alcohol keeps things clean. I always bring a small .5oz bottle anyway for washing my face and maybe body; gives you a nice quick fresh feeling when a bath/shower isn't possible.

I'm always pleasantly surprised when removing the VB socks. Every time I pause and think to myself "this is going to be gross"...but when I remove them it's basically just a slightly clammy foot. Probably not any worse than wearing a thicker sock by itself.

I sure there is a range of experience depending on individual physiology. I'm not a person who sweats excessively, but when I remove my feet from the VBs I can wring my light weight synthetic liner socks out. I then tuck them under the sleeping pad so that the are pliable in the morning. Fortunately I'm also not renown for stinking feet, but after a five day ski touring trip or more my feet are rather unpleasant bed fellows. I never really experienced a lot of "relaxing in the morning" time. Usually it is more the case of how quickly can I stuff this all back together and start skiing to get the BTUs rolling. It is actually kind of amazing how quickly those clammy damp liner socks warm back up one the VB, liners, and boots are back on. Plus, how nice and dry the liners are. The clean up with the alcohol or wipes is a great idea.

Fortunately, I have never experienced "trench foot" either and have only read about it as a precaution.

**OneClick** · 01-24-2018, 08:30

Yea that relaxing in the morning was just a bonus. If you're sleeping even 6 hours per night, you're feet should be happy.

**SteveE** · 01-24-2018, 11:04

I struggle with the this. I truly see the value of keeping your bag/quilts dry (my winter trips often hit temps as low as -25C and I go for 5-6 nights), but I cannot stand the feeling of being clammy like that. I've used VBL socks (bread bags) and they did work good but man I hated the feeling of being clammy. I cant imagine feeling like that all over my body. On the flip-side I can see the value (and almost necessity) to keeping your bag/quilts moisture free on extended trips...

Who here airs their bag or quilt out during the day, or hangs it out in the sun to attempt to dry?

**OneClick** · 01-24-2018, 11:24

Originally Posted by SteveE

Who here airs their bag or quilt out during the day, or hangs it out in the sun to attempt to dry?

If it's sunny and I'm not in a hurry to pack up, I'll do it. It doesn't hurt, even if you think it's completely dry. They're never really "wet" so just 10 minutes in the sun can burn off any dampness from frost or dew.

**BillyBob58** · 02-08-2018, 14:13

Originally Posted by oms121

Not that particular brand and model but I’ve tried VB liners in sleeping bags when I was a ground sleeper. Even on the ground, I found the separate liners to be cumbersome. They did keep my down dry and added warmth but were a single purpose item so I moved to VB clothing which can be worn in the sleeping bag/quilt as well as while moving around. I bought Stephenson’s Fuzzy Stuff shirt, gloves and socks. The shirt is comfortable for me without a base layer due to the fuzzy lining against the skin. Because it is waterproof and wind proof and I generate a lot of heat and moisture when exerting, I can wear it alone down below freezing while backpacking and often open it up completely to vent excess heat and moisture. Even if I get wet from sweat, the shirt does not hold any water so as soon as I cool down, I can zip up and put on insulating layers and I don’t get sweat in my insulation layers. It completely blocks wind also so it does double duty as a wind shirt when not generating heat and sweat. It is not fashionable but very versatile and great when you will be out for multiple days in sub freezing weather and you use down insulation.

The socks are great for many of the same reasons and, as another poster pointed out, keep moisture out of your footwear so you don’t risk frozen shoes/boots in the morning if you leave your footwear outside overnight. I usually hike in trail runners and find VB socks particularly helpful if I have to ford creeks in really cold weather. If the water is shallow and no danger of coming up over the tops of the VB socks, I just walk on through. If the water is deeper, I take off the VB socks, wade through (burr!) and then dry my feet, put the VB socks back on and keep on trucking. My feet warm up quickly and stay warm even though my shoes are soaked. I’ve had frozen fabric and shoelaces while walking but my feet were warm.

If you hike in sub freezing temps, particularly for multiple days at a tine and you use down insulation I would recommend you give VB clothing a try. It is a little tricky to balance the venting and insulation with your exertion level but even if you misjudge and start to sweat, you won’t sweat out your insulation layers which is critical in really cold temps. I suggest reading the VB info at the Warmlite site. They have been proselytizing about VB for 40 years.

Mark

What he said!

Hey, OMS, I just saw this: not just another- rare - SWL VB fuzzy stuff user, but another southern SWL VB user! I'm thinking that has to be a rare combo(i.e. southern and VB user).

**BillyBob58** · 02-08-2018, 15:14

Originally Posted by SteveE

I struggle with the this. I truly see the value of keeping your bag/quilts dry (my winter trips often hit temps as low as -25C and I go for 5-6 nights), but I cannot stand the feeling of being clammy like that. I've used VBL socks (bread bags) and they did work good but man I hated the feeling of being clammy. I cant imagine feeling like that all over my body. On the flip-side I can see the value (and almost necessity) to keeping your bag/quilts moisture free on extended trips...

Who here airs their bag or quilt out during the day, or hangs it out in the sun to attempt to dry?

I have a suggestion: Though I think they have increased in price since I got one, still fairly cheap compared to what folks often spend on gear: gamble $60 on a Warmlite VB shirt. Then first - if it is well above freezing but not summer time hot, just sit outside for a while wearing ONLY this ugly shirt on top(feel free to wear pants though! ). Don't add another layer unless you get a little cold. See how that feels. I think you might be surprised.

If not really bad, move it indoors. Preferably in an AC cooled summertime home, but even a winter heated home if you are not sitting in front of a fireplace and don't have the furnace cranked up over 72. But the idea is: test in a place that is not already hot, preferably just a bit on the cool side.

If you are like me, you will be surprised. Back in the early 80s when I 1st started experimenting with VB socks, I used unlined Patagonia and wore a thin layer of most likely polypro liner socks. The first time I almost panicked when early in the night my feet went from clammy to feeling outright wet, because wet = cold, right? Plus it was a downright unpleasant sensation. But after I realized that despite being wet, my feet were actually unusually warm, I just put up with it and had toasty- probably actually over heated- feet all night. Later when ice fishing with a visiting friend, he had a case of freezing feet. He took my offer to use my VB socks, and in less than 1/2 hour his feet were just fine.

That last was the 2nd experience, and I knew I was on to something, but I rarely took advantage of it over the years(actually, even forgot about it) because of how much I hated that clammy- ans finally out right sweaty- feeling. But I have actually managed to sit around inside my house wearing that VB shirt for a couple of hours at a time, with no problems, no sweat and did not even feel clammy. Same thing outside on cool days.

Sleeping in an HHSS at 6F? Was not even aware I had on anything different, other than being surprisingly warm considering my other gear, and being DRY inside those condensation traps known socks. Only the frost bib had any moisture on it. Other times I have been hiking or working outside in either kind of cold temps, like going up and down a ladder, and failed to vent properly and started to sweat profusely. One day on the home stretch of a day hike, I could tell I was starting to sweat a lot, but I was in a hurry and did not bother to remove layers(just unzipped) until I got to the car. I was really wet(needlessly so, I could have stopped and removed layers at the 1st sign of over heating), but it just did not feel a bad as my previous clammy experiences. But my outer layer(a cotton flannel shirt, worst possible for cold or wet)? Bone dry! And that is what is important: keep your insulation dry, from external and internal moisture. I'm certain that I sweat all the time when hiking, I just don't notice it much because it is wicked away from my skin and into my insulation. But more than once, I have definitely noticed it as soon as I stop hiking!

But if you are wanting to experiment with VBs, but can not stand the clammy feeling, I can personally recommend this brand. Not really wearable except in the woods, not a good looking garment for sure. But works and is way less clammy than other VB types I have tried, i.e. a simple coated VB over a thin synthetic layer. This feels better to me. OTOH, a garbage bag or some left over sil-nylon worn over a thin layer you already have is free. If you bought this and couldn't stand it, there probably is not much of a market for resale.
https://www.warmlite.com/product/no-sweat-shirt/

**oms121** · 02-09-2018, 10:54

Originally Posted by BillyBob58

What he said!

Hey, OMS, I just saw this: not just another- rare - SWL VB fuzzy stuff user, but another southern SWL VB user! I'm thinking that has to be a rare combo(i.e. southern and VB user).

Yep. I’ve never run into another VB user, much less a Stephenson’s Fuzzy Stuff user around here. I know one GA backpacker that has/had one of their tents but that’s it. I visited their office/home once when I was in NH hiking the Whites. Definitely idiosyncratic bunch. But very early VB adopters.

Plus, you gotta love their early catalogs!

**OneClick** · 02-09-2018, 10:55

Weren't they the ones with naked people in the ads/catalogs back in the day?

**OlTrailDog** · 02-09-2018, 11:42

Originally Posted by oms121

Yep. I’ve never run into another VB user, much less a Stephenson’s Fuzzy Stuff user around here. I know one GA backpacker that has/had one of their tents but that’s it. I visited their office/home once when I was in NH hiking the Whites. Definitely idiosyncratic bunch. But very early VB adopters.

Plus, you gotta love their early catalogs!

I had a couple of Stephenson tents. Really nice light weight tents. I use to suffer majorly from a tent fetish and have the pleasure of using many different ones professionally and personally. But in the end I prefer modular pyramid tents like the Golite Hex3 (Shangra-La).

Speaking of VBs. I came across two full length VBs while looking for the bug net for the DH SL Raven I just sold. For using in a sleeping system. Any VB folks interested enough that I should post in the FS forum? One is made by Brooks Mountaineering and I don't remember what make the blue one is off hand.