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  1. #121
    Senior Member stairguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lonely Raven View Post
    For being the second youngest guy out there (bunch of old farts!)
    Being, I believe, the second oldest (58) I'll have you know that I resemble that remark.
    " Wiggs "

    ________________________________________

  2. #122
    MacEntyre's Avatar
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    TZ, you should tell Shug about your similar solution for frost from your breath...
    "We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately." - Ben Franklin
    www.MollyMacGear.com

  3. #123
    Senior Member canoeski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacEntyre View Post
    There were a lot of folks who wore modern clothing and were toasty. Perhaps someone who wore all synthetic clothing will tell us what they wore, to contrast with this description.
    ...
    So, who had all modern clothes, and how did they perform?
    Mac,
    This is in response to your request for an alternative point of view on winter clothing. I did not plan on putting out a list of what I did, because I find that each person approaches same problem with different equipment, experience, and techniques, and different conditions. These lists are sometimes an OK starting point, but each person needs to figure out what works for them under different conditions. No one set of gear is going to cover all persons or all conditions, and he need to understand principles of cold weather camping to make your equipment perform optimally.

    I cannot disagree with any of 4 dogs statements or techniques, and he offers a lot of advice based on experience in these conditions. I believe I understand his principles, and on this trip they proved to work perfectly. Under extreme cold conditions, the snow and atmosphere is very dry and almost desert-like, and cotton outer garments worked very well, and are superior to synthetics such as Gore-Tex.

    My clothing strategy has evolved to become almost the polar (inadvertent pun) opposite of Four Dog’s simply by the nature of the types of trips I have done the past, and weather conditions during those trips. I have been winter camping for 30 years, but do not yet consider myself close to an expert. Most of my trips have been between 5 and 8 days long, and the coldest temperatures I had to endure was a Boundary Waters trip over New Years, where the first night’s low temp was -36°F! (The temperature on that trip never rose above -15° , and after 5 days we had to call it quits.) Most of my winter excursions to the Upper Peninsula of Michigan and central/northern Wisconsin have been solo excursions. My extended trips out west in the mountains of California and Oregon were group trips in the spring (March through April) (mind you, there is still 8-10 feet of snow on the ground). During quite a few of these trips I have encountered wet conditions from either melting snow or rain. A waterproof outer shell is absolutely essential. As always, moisture management is key to survival in extreme climates. It is just as important not to overdress and become sweaty, as it is to be under dressed and risk hypothermia from inadequate insulation.

    As for building fires to stay warm and dry clothes, it is just my personal preference to avoid building fires and to stay warm by dressing appropriately, maintaining a certain level of activity, avoid dehydration, and consuming foods that generate heat from within. I detest smokey clothes, and in fact last night I had to wash some of my items for the second time. On the other hand, fire building skills are paramount to survival in these conditions if the need arises. One could argue that always building a fire helps keep up those skills, and I cannot argue with that, but I try to maintain a fire building skills whenever I can.

    I think it is important to be open-minded to others differences and techniques and learn as much as possible from them. I certainly respect Four Dog’s attitude, skills, and competency in regards to Winter survival techniques. I hope that some day I would be able to spend more time learning his ways.

    Having said that here is my clothing list from this trip:

    Base layer:
    • REI MTS synthetic boxer briefs
    • Navano polyester midweight longjohns
    • REI MTS midweight zip T-neck undershirt

    Insulation layers:
    • SPORTIF polyester heavyweight thermal zip-neck underwear top (to use this is a light sweater all year round )
    • L.L. Bean wind shirt nylon (one of my most prized layers)
    • Kmart insulated windshell pants.(Quick dry nylon on the outside, and a very thin polyester lining for insulation)
    • Patagonia Puffball half zip vest (light weight polyester fiberfill insulation)
    • Patagonia MicroPuff jacket (light to medium weight polyester fiberfill insulation)(this was much warmer than I expected)
    • Marmot Ama Dablam down jacket (did not even come close to consider using this)

    Footwear:
    • Ultimax calf high sock liner
    • Gander Mountian calf high wool sock
    • Sorrell felt lined boots (with a rubber bottom and nylon uppers, and calf high felt liner)
    • Cooke Custom Sewing mukluks(nylon shell with polyester insulation, and removal felt boot liner)
    • Down booties (for sleeping) and nylon over cover(for when he have to get up)

    Head gear:
    • REI polyester balaclava and a Smart Wool balaclava
    • Turtle Fur Windtech hat
    • JRB down hood (more comfortable and useful than I anticipated)(worn almost exclusively at night)

    Hand wear:
    • Synthetic glove liner combined with wool fingerless gloves.
    • Alpine Low midweight polyester/nylon glove liner
    • Marmot shell gloves (full-length), lightly insulated
    • Chounard pile insulated mittens

    Windshell:
    • Columbia Omnitech shell (XL to accomidate all above layers)(has a fine mesh liner)

    I did have a few other items in my pack that I kept in reserve so that I could swap them out with similar items if needed . On almost every trip I'm trying out some new gear, or some new combination of old gear .
    I hope this answered some of your questions , but I'm sure they will probably raise a few more.

    HYOH or FYOB (Freeze Your Own Butt)
    ~bill.
    Not all who wander are lost.

  4. #124
    Senior Member canoeski's Avatar
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    TZ,

    Great videos!
    I especially like the "return trip" with the 1920's multirouter duplicator.

    Fritz,
    We all need to thank you for the gifts that each one received: a Browning headlamp for a baseball cap visor that work well on knit caps too. Thanks! ( got to try out the Browning headlamp too; boy is that thing powerful! I especially liked the red LED for night vision.
    Not all who wander are lost.

  5. #125
    TZBrown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacEntyre View Post
    TZ, you should tell Shug about your similar solution for frost from your breath...
    In my first post of the trip report I stated I used a "breathing tube", This idea is not new, and was first brought up that weekend by Stairguy.

    However I had forgotten about it, and usually just use a snthetic, 200 fleece Frost Cloth over my face and to protect the top of my sleeping bag.

    Having forgot the frost cloth, I improvised by using an extra pair of GI field pant synthetic liners, like the poncho liner quilted material.

    I clipped the legs to the ridgeline and stuck my head inside the waist area of the pants. It would have made a great photo.

    The sleep system was protected from moisture, and I was able to breath somewhat pre heated air. It worked very well.

    I will probably make something more specialized with a longer bibb in front for more coverage.

    TZ
    Life's A Journey
    It's not to arrive safely at the grave in a well preserved body,
    But rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting,
    Woo Hoo!....What a Ride!

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  6. #126
    Senior Member Stovemandan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacEntyre View Post
    Them are three long sticks that Firewalker sawed from blowdowns and stuck into the snow. FourDog wanted a parallel fire four or five feet long for best effect.

    Anoraks are very unflattering with a water bottle and other stuff crammed into the front pockets.
    Fourdog changed his mind and used them for "snow stakes" What are snow stakes used for, never heard of them??? How deep was the snow up there that those stakes are standing upright or were they pounded into the ground? I was watching the video that "pizza" shared and was impressed how the shelter was made and heated by infra red radiation. At around minute 6:25 those snow stakes are in the forefront. Looks like they would have made nice fire wood.

    You look toasty warm in your Anorak. You look like a "north woodsman" Paul Bunyan type

    fourdog
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Stovemandan View Post
    .
    What was the reason for cutting the three live trees in the foreground?

    I thought that was a no no in the scheme of Leave No Trace.

    Was there a community latrine pit or just individual cat holes in the frozen ground? How was the disposal of wastes handled in this type of environment?
    There not live trees they are snow stakes cut from dead laying wood.

    The human manure was disperesed in the envoriment to help things grow in the future.

    This was not a established camp site, this was done on MN state forest land in area of 96,270 acres where the trees are harvested in a 20-30 years cycle. In that forest you have the right to camp as we did.

    No live trees where killed or mutilated in this hang.

    If the average person went to that spot this spring they will not even know we where there.

    We took a much larger dump on mother earth on the petrol we used to get there then we did there. At worse we left it the same, at best we left it better.

    fourdog
    Seriously, was was the preferred method of you guys taking a dump? I know "fast" was first priority..........did you just use your boot to scoop out snow, take care of buisiness and then cover with snow?
    Coming soon: Fancee Feest teams up with "El Conquistador"

  7. #127
    TZBrown's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stovemandan View Post
    Seriously, was was the preferred method of you guys taking a dump? I know "fast" was first priority..........did you just use your boot to scoop out snow, take care of buisiness and then cover with snow?
    Find a secluded location, we dispersed over a large and very brushy area for toilet.
    heel in a spot in the snow
    only unbuckle your suspenders, keeping parka in place for coverage
    Buisness as usual
    Since I forgot the TP, Snowballs were used. Cold, but Very effective.
    No paper trace, when all is melted.
    Since most animals in the wild don't cover their job, I only used snow as a cover after. Mark the spot with a stick to warn others.
    If TP is used burning, on the spot is an option, if you can't get it burried below ground, or blue bag and carry out, if the regulations apply.

    I find if an area is used only occasionally no harm will be done. (I Know some will disagree).
    For a longer duration or larger group I would have prefered a latrine, actually dug into the ground, if possible to bury

    TZ
    Life's A Journey
    It's not to arrive safely at the grave in a well preserved body,
    But rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting,
    Woo Hoo!....What a Ride!

    My PHOTOS

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  8. #128
    Senior Member stairguy's Avatar
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    Have to admit, I actually enjoyed using the snowballs. I know, I need help
    " Wiggs "

    ________________________________________

  9. #129
    Senior Member Walking Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stairguy View Post
    Have to admit, I actually enjoyed using the snowballs. I know, I need help
    Except for the snowballs I learned a lot more about winter camping.
    I think that at least four of five of the participants were at other Northern hangs that I have been to. I have followed the planning and trip reports with great interest. I not sure if I will ever try for these kinds of low temperatures. My wife says I can't go on anything that cold. However, a lot of the things that were shown can be used at much warmer temperatures.
    Thanks for all the great trip planning tips and great trip reports, they were great.

  10. #130
    Senior Member Stovemandan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TZBrown View Post
    Find a secluded location, we dispersed over a large and very brushy area for toilet.
    heel in a spot in the snow
    only unbuckle your suspenders, keeping parka in place for coverage
    Buisness as usual
    Since I forgot the TP, Snowballs were used. Cold, but Very effective.
    No paper trace, when all is melted.
    Since most animals in the wild don't cover their job, I only used snow as a cover after. Mark the spot with a stick to warn others.
    If TP is used burning, on the spot is an option, if you can't get it burried below ground, or blue bag and carry out, if the regulations apply.

    I find if an area is used only occasionally no harm will be done. (I Know some will disagree).
    For a longer duration or larger group I would have prefered a latrine, actually dug into the ground, if possible to bury

    TZ
    Snowballs for tp.........you gotta have brass b---s to use it for tp

    I would venture to say your method was the preferred choice of all that attended. Accept for the snowballs.

    I would have pulked in a 5 gal. bucket and used a product that goes by the name of "double-doodi" and would have had my toilet right at my site. The product has a very durable double zip lock system to secure the contents so it can be carried out safely.

    Those MN temperatures are brutal. Not for me, thank you very much!!!

    Thanks for your reply.
    Coming soon: Fancee Feest teams up with "El Conquistador"

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