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  1. #11
    neo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turk View Post
    I have many pictures posted in different threads around the forum. Here are a couple recent ones from christmas day, so you get an idea of what the setup looks like inside:


    You are completely right in suggesting the basha, as it is an already proven ground concept. I should have mentioned that my primary goals is to work with the JRB Hammock Tent, and Ti-goat stove as to provide real-world field testing in very low temps. As you can see from above, I have the same benefits you described in basha camping, already altered and designed for hammock.

    I have done extensive testing ... but my weakest areas, and the reason for this thread is my lack of knowledge and confidence
    in my hammock insulation system. I sure as heck own enough gear. I just need to find the best way to put the right components
    together to stay safe in temps potentially reaching -90 deg F. Its almost 100 deg's colder than the coldest weather I
    have hammocked in. Maybe I should have posted this in the discussion thread I already started for hot hammocking. But I don't know how to move a post now that its made. (happens when you are still up and typing at 2AM) perhaps a mod could move this for me. Either way I am still looking for conventional wisdom on un-heated hammock insulation and getting well below zero deg F.
    wow interesting pictures,what keeps the tarp from melting neo
    the matrix has you

  2. #12
    Senior Member turk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by neo View Post
    wow interesting pictures,what keeps the tarp from melting neo
    The chimney pipe exits the roof through a fire-proof roof jack made by titaniumgoat.com The temperature of the chimney ranges anywhere from
    300-900 deg F. The fabric of the tent is also fire retardant. And I use a series of screens in the chimney pipe to stop sparks from getting airborne.

    Quote Originally Posted by Just Jeff View Post
    Are your buddies tenting right next to you?
    Yes definitely. I am hoping to make a last minute purchase and get express delivery on the JRB 8x8 tent, if it is at all possible. But I don't know if they will release in time for the trip. I would love to kill 2 birds with one stone and perform testing on both models at once. The JRB 8x8 tent, as an unheated shelter... pitched completely below snow level (weather and safety permitting)
    Thats putting a great deal of faith in a piece of gear I've never seen and will have no time to trial test.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch View Post
    I have to ask what you plan your pack weight to be?
    Sled - Shappell Jet Sled carrying 25-30lbs Backpack - Golite Jam pack - carrying 10-12lbs
    Worn items - in excess of 15lbs including snowshoes, clothing, water and camera equipment.

    The trip is inspired by a similar winter bushwack by a group of hikers out of michigan that set out on an extremely ambitious snowshoe and pulk hike in Feburary of 07 in the neighbourhood I grew up in. While their initial distance goals were quickly abandoned, I still think is was a very impressive venture. I have put major time into researching and trying to learn about the gear, techniques and skills they used in similar terrain, weather and water crossings. (Some pics Below from that trip) I have spent the last year buying some key pieces of gear and generally getting ready.
    Last edited by turk; 12-27-2007 at 19:23.

  3. #13
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Jeff View Post
    A good snow shovel and plenty of time to make a snow trench. If a 60mph gust takes down the tent, you'll be dangerously exposed for the few minutes it takes to freeze.

    Are your buddies tenting right next to you?

    Pushing the envelope - I like it. Be safe.
    Yep, in addition to the huge amounts of insulation probably needed for your goals, particularly in case of stove failure, my main concern for you would be protection from wind. So far with my experience with tarps, I have not felt super confident in their ability to stand up to wind, compared to 4 season tents, not even to mention snow caves. And the bigger the tarp the less my confidence. I have had the wind flatten the sides of my tarp against my insulation, compressing it. And then there is the concern of heavy winds all night breaking the tarp loose, as Jeff reported on one of his winter trips. I love these tarps, but they can not match a low profile 4 season tent with the fly attached at multiple points to interlocking poles with only small sections of fabric exposed to the wind, compared to the large "sail" of a tarp or tarp tent. What a challenge you have set for yourself!

    I have done plenty of high altitude full on winter camping, but always with mountaineering tents and or in snow caves. When I go to the mountains ( non-winter only, so far, but at high altitude) with a hammock and tarp, I don't have any illusions about the shelter being able to with stand in the worst wind storms, but I do hope to be able to find sheltered areas out of the wind, on the lee side of a ridge or huge rock. Is this technique going to be part of your plan? ( I have not read the entire thread yet)

    And what about keeping all of this top and bottom down dry? Is that assured under the conditions and with the tent/tarp shelter? If not, is a bail out easily accomplished? I figure you have already thought of and planned for both the dry down and/or bail out. Or at least fall back to snow cave or something similar. Any problem with the above could lead to a very unpleasant outcome.

    Of course, your stove is an option I have never had, and as long as there is no question of getting the fire started, it would give you a huge advantage. Again, as long as you are pretty certain of your ability to keep the wind off of you. AKA as long as the wind doesn't blow the tent/tarp away. In which case I don't think your stove would be of much benefit against a -91 chill factor.

    Have you considered vapor barrier clothing to keep all of your insulation- clothing and sleeping- protected from your own body moisture, as well as adding 10° or so to the warmth?

    This is an interesting thread, and I look forward to reading the rest of it and every one's ideas and about your progress and the final trip report.

  4. #14
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    PS: I forgot to mention snow load on the tarp, in case heavy snow load is a consideration. Ground sleeping under a taut low pitched tarp, I have awakened with part my face and bag covered by the tarp, with me in the middle directly under the ridge line. Collapsed from snow(raining when I went to sleep)!
    Last edited by BillyBob58; 12-27-2007 at 22:59.

  5. #15
    Senior Member turk's Avatar
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    I would love to learn more about vapour barrier clothing. But I waited too late to begin testing. I don't know if I have enough time left to feel confident introducing a completely new variable into my setup. It definitely has me thinking about it... I just don't have any real world experience with vapour barriers.

    I really like the comments about trenching in. I am certainly planning my trip carefully so as not to be caught out on the icepack at night. I want to be deep in the tree-line and trenched down into the deeper snow and in the protection of the pines and spruce when setting up each night. I did a quick sketch based on thoughts and ideas about trenching in, and how it might work with my shelter.
    Here is a cut-away view:


    The trip is less about the journey, and far more about the experience gained. Its really about 2 things.

    * hammockers vs ground dwellers - in REAL winter.

    * The Kifaru heated Tipi tent vs the JRB heated Hammock tent

    The ground dwellers have set the bar high, with a proven tipi system and years of related experience and refinement.
    All I have is an untested prototype, and a forum group of the best hammock knowledge found anywhere.

    Good odds, I think.

    When its all done I will be posting video gear reviews and trip journals to Youtube.
    Last edited by turk; 12-27-2007 at 19:13.

  6. #16
    Member steene's Avatar
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    I'm with JustJeff....

    A bailout plan is called for IMHO. The snow wall/trench around the shelter is a great idea. That implies a shovel, a definite necessity in that situation. Deflecting the wind should help greatly.
    I am concerned that you made no mention of ccf pads, these would be a necessity if you are forced to ground. Hopefully they won't be needed; but better to have and not need, than to need and not have,
    I have never hung in that kind of weather but have winter camped in the BWCAW south of you. I started out in snow trenches and upgraded to quinzhees. The quinzhees really shone on windy stretches.
    Are you planning to retrace your steps out or are you planning a one way route? If you are coming back the same way you went in you could build snow shelters as a back up on the way in and camp next to them again on the way out. That would take a great deal of time; setting up two camps every time you stopped on the way in.
    The beauty of that country is surpassed only by it's unforgiving nature. No second chances. Things change fast and not always for the better.
    I am jealous, this is going to be a great trip for you. Take lots of pictures for us tag-a-longs.

  7. #17
    Senior Member turk's Avatar
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    All really good advice Steene. You're going to make me break down and take a full length CCF pad. Have been debating heavily on that topic. The snow-shelters are also a reality I should really be looking at. I was going to take a very simple pair of Snowclaw shovels as heavily advertised on backpackinglight. But perhaps a more traditional shovel would be worth its extra weight. Digging out a snowcave is pretty quick work with the right tool.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Just Jeff's Avatar
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    CCF sit pads are pretty important for sitting around on snow anyway - I bet you'll use it just hanging around camp. Definitely needed on a trip like this, IMO. Besides, you're pulking...it's not like an extra 12 oz is gonna make a difference!

    The thing about snow caves is that water freezes at 32F...so if you're completely inside, the air will be roughly 30F and then your body heats it up even further. Snow is a great insulator up to freezing point. Snow trenches are pretty much the same...you're supposed to dig it just big enough for your body, then put a tarp over the top...then cover the tarp with snow so even the top is insulated. In your picture, your tarp is still open to the elements...i.e. the only insulation between you and -90F is a piece of nylon. You can do better.

    If you want to prove the tarptent/woodstove idea, you can do it. If you want to prove that hammocks can work at those temps, a snow trench is probably safer and more insulated from the wind. You might even be able to work your stove into it.
    “Republics are created by the virtue, public spirit, and intelligence of the citizens. They fall when the wise are banished from the public councils because they dare to be honest, and the profligate are rewarded because they flatter the people, in order to betray them.” ~Judge Joseph Story

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  9. #19
    neo's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by turk View Post
    The chimney pipe exits the roof through a fire-proof roof jack made by titaniumgoat.com The temperature of the chimney ranges anywhere from
    300-900 deg F. The fabric of the tent is also fire retardant. And I use a series of screens in the chimney pipe to stop sparks from getting airborne.


    Yes definitely. I am hoping to make a last minute purchase and get express delivery on the JRB 8x8 tent, if it is at all possible. But I don't know if they will release in time for the trip. I would love to kill 2 birds with one stone and perform testing on both models at once. The JRB 8x8 tent, as an unheated shelter... pitched completely below snow level (weather and safety permitting)
    Thats putting a great deal of faith in a piece of gear I've never seen and will have no time to trial test.


    Sled - Shappell Jet Sled carrying 25-30lbs Backpack - Golite Jam pack - carrying 10-12lbs
    Worn items - in excess of 15lbs including snowshoes, clothing, water and camera equipment.

    The trip is inspired by a similar winter bushwack by a group of hikers out of michigan that set out on an extremely ambitious snowshoe and pulk hike in Feburary of 07 in the neighbourhood I grew up in. While their initial distance goals were quickly abandoned, I still think is was a very impressive venture. I have put major time into researching and trying to learn about the gear, techniques and skills they used in similar terrain, weather and water crossings. (Some pics Below from that trip) I have spent the last year buying some key pieces of gear and generally getting ready.
    now this is what i call an extreme outing,i love it,it look like it dont get any better than this,i envy you dude neo
    the matrix has you

  10. #20
    neo's Avatar
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    i checked out titanium goat website,it has some interesting stuff. neo

    http://www.titaniumgoat.com/
    the matrix has you

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