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Thread: Permethrin Kit

  1. #11
    Senior Member zukiguy's Avatar
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    So I wonder how that works with the Sawyer products (the pump bottle not the aerosol)?? I guess I should use it up sooner rather than later.

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    in it for the naps oldgringo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zukiguy View Post
    So I wonder how that works with the Sawyer products (the pump bottle not the aerosol)?? I guess I should use it up sooner rather than later.
    I was wondering the same thing.

    My guess: different formulation. The bulk product is meant to be mixed and sprayed, not stored.
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    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zukiguy View Post
    So I wonder how that works with the Sawyer products (the pump bottle not the aerosol)?? I guess I should use it up sooner rather than later.
    Quote Originally Posted by oldgringo View Post
    I was wondering the same thing.

    My guess: different formulation. The bulk product is meant to be mixed and sprayed, not stored.
    I recently finished using the left overs from my Sawyer pump/spray bottle ( not the soak method). This was bought some time last year, don't remember when, but still during bug season or earlier. It seems to have worked fine for at least several weeks.
    For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us....that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
    Romans 8:18,21-22

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    Thanks so much for this post Knotty..Very excited to see it as I want to do multiple treatments of clothes for a thru hike and shipping a concentrated amount is a great way to do this and save a lot of $$

    Quote Originally Posted by mountain_man_mike View Post
    That's a nice article Knotty. I know you folks have a tougher bug problem than we do out here, but it looks like you have the right stuff to combat them. Being that I am ignorant about the stuff, my first thought was "What happens when someone washes their clothes in a lake or stream? Will wildlife suffer as a result? If there is any harm, is it less or more than other products?" This isn't criticism, just my curiosity from a perspective of zero knowledge about the product.
    I believe it depends on how many washes has been done. Looking at the sawyer site, they mention this from a military test:

    about 20 to 30 percent of the permethrin treatment was removed after the first laundering. Thereafter, about 3 to 5 percent was lost to each cycle through ten launderings.

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    With Permethrin being the tiny amount and 'Inert' ingredients being the remainder, what should we suppose makes up the inert ingredients? Items to keep shelf life?

    Are they possibly things that help the permethrin bond to the clothing?

  6. #16
    Knotty's Avatar
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    Bottle says it petroleum distillates but no specifics.
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    The inert ingredients would concern me. I would be surprised if the Sawyer Permethrin kits and sprays have the same inert ingredient as a permethrin application that was meant for livestock and use as a general pesticide.

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    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by termite View Post
    The inert ingredients would concern me. I would be surprised if the Sawyer Permethrin kits and sprays have the same inert ingredient as a permethrin application that was meant for livestock and use as a general pesticide.
    Me too. But, if I product is specified to be used on both livestock and pets ( except cats of course, and the problem there is apparently the Perm itself), it seems unlikely ( no guarantees) that they would add a product known to be harmful to humans.

    In addition, I'm guessing and hoping that the Hi Yield 10% Indoor/outdoor is even less likely to have distillates added which are harmful, compared to Sawyers. Simply as it is advertised to be used inside where we live, after correct dilution to .5% anyway.

    The Hi Yield 38% label says do NOT use indoors. FWIW.

    My Sawyers label says ODORLESS Permethrin. But, I can attest that the diluted Hi Yield 10% product is about as free of odor.

    Yesterday I took some of the Hi Yield 38% and diluted it down to 2.5% in the bottle meant to be hooked to a hose, for backyard spraying. I think that this ends up at .5% after the additional dilution from the hose, think I read that somewhere. I did not notice any odor after spraying part of the yard and back porch. Some of these "Bug Free Backyard" Permethrin products have left a quite noticeable odor for a couple of days after spraying. Not this one.

    Too bad we can't know what is in these products other than Permethrin. Because the 38% Perm and whatever else is in there ends up a lot more diluted with water the the 10% does. Whatever is in the bottle ends up diluted by a factor of 76 rather than by a factor of 20. So, 3,8 times more dilute, whatever is in there.

    Sure would be nice if some of these concentrate manufacturers would make this stuff for clothes application as well as spray right on non-feline pets. Just so we could know for sure and not be guessing. I do feel a little extra safety with the "inside/outside" bottle. Since there could definitely be contact of the dried product with human skin after spraying rugs or floors. But who knows, the extra ingredients in the Hi Yield 10% and 38% might be identical since I can not smell either one so far.

    Both contain Petroleum distillates, Sawyer's does not have that on it's label.

    Any one know what a CIS/TRANS ratio is? And if that tells us anything useful? Both sawyers and Hi yield have this on the label, and its roughly the same for all 3: min 35% max 55% for Hi Yield, 65% for sawyers.
    For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us....that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
    Romans 8:18,21-22

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    I found the MSDS for Gordons Permethrin 10 that lists exactly what the "inert" ingredients are, Sawyers I could only find mention of "proprietary inert ingredients", their MSDS.
    I would not think that the dried application would be particularly hazardous; my concerns would be concentrate and the solution.

  10. #20
    Senior Member DiscoveryDiver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillyBob58 View Post
    Any one know what a CIS/TRANS ratio is? And if that tells us anything useful? Both sawyers and Hi yield have this on the label, and its roughly the same for all 3: min 35% max 55% for Hi Yield, 65% for sawyers.
    Blast from the past...cis and trans are molecule orientations...that's where the term "trans-fat" comes from.

    If one thinks of the base molecular structure as a straight chain, and two sub-molecular groups added at roughly 90 degree angles to the ends of that chain (like two groups of methyl, alcohol, etc) if those two addition are on the same side of the chain (making a "C" shape) that is called a cis orientation. If the two additions are on opposite sides of the chain (making roughly an "S" shape) that is called trans orientation.

    These orientations can give the resulting molecule different properties. My guess is that certain percentages of cis and trans in this case give a mixture of positive and negative effects that people (who know more about this product than we do) care about.

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