Big Permetrin find!

[BillyBob58]

This is a great thread.....cheapskates unite!!!!

Really, I've been using permethrin for a while and I love the product but I've always kind of balked at the price. I hate the smell and feel of Deet so I try and keep it off me as much as possible. .........................
I've treated a long sleeved shirt, pants, and pair of lightweight gaiters. On my last trip I brought the pants/shirt but didn't wear them due to the heat. I left the gaiters at home due to the easy terrain. After the 2nd day I realized how stupid this was as I was eaten up around the ankles and some other areas by chiggers. Live and learn. This was even after dosing up both legs with bug spray.

That just goes to show again how great this stuff works. Even with no bug spray, with treated pants/socks or gators, I bet you would not have had one bite!

Has anyone had a chance to play with these "new" solutions to figure out how long the protection lasts? Apparently UV and oxygen breaks this stuff down.

Not really, not with any scientific certainty. I would say at least several weeks, though. And who knows, maybe 6 weeks like Sawyers says.

Maybe I should store my hiking clothes in a vacuum bag between trips? For the relatively low cost of this homebrew solution I can afford to dose up my clothes before every trip.

I store mine like that when I can remember to do it. Sure, with the home brew you could afford to treat every week. But there is the hassle factor. Plus, Sawyers and Permone (sp?) say not to treat again until a certain time has elapsed. Read that somewhere, can't find it now. I don't know, would it be possible to obtain a concentration on clothing high enough to be a hazard by spraying too often?

[BER]

Yep, looks like there is no way around the distillates, although my Sawyers container did not spell this out on the label, unlike the Hi Yield stuff which plainly says it. However, on SOME items ( my safari hammock, and my Pinnacle pack and one cotton t shirt) I do notice some very slight residue- reminds me of a few small greasy spots- at least for a while. On others, I see nothing, and none have a smell. I don't think I ever saw this with Sawyers.

I wonder if when you saw the greasy spots, the solution was not adequately mixed. Since the permethrin is dissolved in the petroleum distillate, and the emulsification agent allows dispersal through the solution, it would stand to reason that if it sits for a period of time, the petroleum distillates will aggregate (not sure this is the right word for this context) similarly to when you leave oil and vinegar dressing sit...it tends to separate until you mix again.

I don't think there's any way of getting around the petroleum distillates. I assume permethrin isn't water soluble and needs the distillates as a carrier. Oh-no also wrote that once mixed with water the product will only remain in solution for a short time with no way of getting it to mix again, so once you mix it use it.

If I remember chemistry correctly, it may be an issue of the emulsification agent breaking down. Isn't there a chemist in our midst that can clear all this up?

Also, by using the higher concentrates you end up with less distillates.

You should end up with a similar concentration of petroleum distillate. If you need X amount of petroleum distillate to dissolve Y amount of permenthrin, you will need 10X petroleum distillate to dissolve 10Y amount of permethrin. Once you dillute your concentrated solution, you are back to X. (Assuming these companies use no more petroleum distillate than necessary)

The Sawyer 0.5% solution MSDS lists the petroleum distillate as <1%. The MSDS for the 38% concentrate listed the petroluem distillate as >15%. Neither gives exact amounts, but once you dilute the 38% concentrate, you will probably have a roughly similar amount of petroleum distillate...

And there is not much practical reason not to just use the Hi Yield ( or similar) 10 %. Which I prefer for the Indoor/Outdoor on the label.

24 oz Sawyers .5% for $12.99= $0.54 per oz

8 oz 10% Hi Yield (or similar) diluted to 160 oz of .5% at $5.99= 3.8 cents per oz

same with 38% diluted to 608 oz for $12.99= 2.1 cents per oz

I hope my math is ~ correct, some one better confirm.

Very similar to my calculations, adjusted for slightly different starting prices.


I think I just realized that I am a geek...

[hppyfngy]

I think I just realized that I am a geek...

Oh really now? We're always the last to find out.

[BER]

Oh really now? We're always the last to find out.

It was that obvious before, eh?

[hppyfngy]

I am anxious to try this stuff and bought my 10% from TS today. But I also wonder about a couple of things.

Supposedly this is very binding to the fabric, but we do travel where there are fish and honeybees and other wildlife we don't want to harm.

Do you think this is the least evil we can do to the environment and still stay pretty bug free?

Also, a big question for me, I have a friend who would be interested in this but she has cats. I wonder if she should forego it altogether. She doesn't take the cats camping, (I know people who do,) however she is the type that would leave treated clothing tossed about where cats would be bound to get on them. (Since cat's, of course, get on everything.) Would the residual in dry treated garments be toxic or is it only when it's wet?

In other words are there any of you who have cats and use this and have or haven't killed them yet?

You might find this Permethrin Technical Fact Sheet interesting too.

[BillyBob58]

I am anxious to try this stuff and bought my 10% from TS today. But I also wonder about a couple of things.

Supposedly this is very binding to the fabric, but we do travel where there are fish and honeybees and other wildlife we don't want to harm.

Do you think this is the least evil we can do to the environment and still stay pretty bug free?

Also, a big question for me, I have a friend who would be interested in this but she has cats. I wonder if she should forego it altogether. She doesn't take the cats camping, (I know people who do,) however she is the type that would leave treated clothing tossed about where cats would be bound to get on them. (Since cat's, of course, get on everything.) Would the residual in dry treated garments be toxic or is it only when it's wet?

In other words are there any of you who have cats and use this and have or haven't killed them yet?

You might find this Permethrin Technical Fact Sheet interesting too.

From your link:

Conversely, cats can be sensitive to products with high concentrations of permethrin, possibly due to insufficient glucoronide
conjugation capability, which hinders the metabolism of permethrin.7,8
Dermal exposures to cats and dogs may cause temporary or ear, tail or skin twitching, or rolling on the ground.5

So, is it possible to expose cats to high concentrations of Perm from dry clothing? I don't know. I would guess highly unlikely. We have cats, but I have always kept my treated clothing away from them. I think Cannibal has said that their cats get all over his treated stuff, without ill effect.

I think for sure the biggest danger is coming into the house after treatment. And the chance that there might be some liquid permethrin on your clothing worn during treatment. I also suspect that injury to cats has been when permethrin was applied in liquid form to the cats on purpose, as it often is on dogs and cattle. But I have no idea what the official word is as far as dried and theoretically bonded permethrin on clothing coming into contact with cats. But some of the stuff I use is labeled "indoor/outdoor". It is meant to be used inside the house on floors and carpet. (After proper dilution) so I'm thinking they probably know that some people using this would have cats as house pets. So, maybe that means there have been no reported problems, so far? Maybe, but I sure don't know for sure.

[hppyfngy]

Thanks BB, I'm glad to hear at least that. From what I have read I believe the concentrations we're talking about here are not likely to be harmful to cats directly, assuming they are not subjected to the liquid form. That said I did read either in that .pdf or elsewhere that cats should not have contact with dogs treated with the stuff, which gave me pause.

On the other hand I have friends with horses that use it and have barn cats. Maybe I would feel better after I see what concentrations they use. I'll bet is higher than we are talking here.

I was also concerned to read about it's toxicity to honey bees and fish but I guess we just have to be careful with it in any case.

Thanks again I'm looking forward to being bugged a lot less.

[JohnSawyer]

The carpet spray we've used says to keep cats away until dry.

We've used it 6-7 times over the 8 years we've lived here... the Cat is 13 and has had no health issues in her long days other than ear mites once many years ago.

[BillyBob58]

The carpet spray we've used says to keep cats away until dry.

We've used it 6-7 times over the 8 years we've lived here... the Cat is 13 and has had no health issues in her long days other than ear mites once many years ago.

I'd say that- plus Cannibal's posted experience- settles the cat issue. Long as everything is dry.

Plus, keeping cats away from dogs which have been treated might refer to when the dogs are still wet? Plus, if they are buddies the cats might groom the dogs.

[JohnSawyer]

I'd say that- plus Cannibal's posted experience- settles the cat issue. Long as everything is dry.

Plus, keeping cats away from dogs which have been treated might refer to when the dogs are still wet? Plus, if they are buddies the cats might groom the dogs.

Good point on the grooming. The primary point here is: The petroleum distillates emulsify the hydrophobic permethrin, and then evaporate off. I'd bet that the permethrin sticks to fabrics quite well due to this, reducing the environmental and feline impact.

That said, I wonder if a deep stream crossing is an environmental issue when wearing recently treated clothing...

Oh, and my local REI has a brand (don't recall the name) of .5% permethrin clothing spray for $7-$8. Given how often I don't use the stuff, I'll probably stick with it... unless the fleas in the yard get really bad...

John