Clark 'Feature' Claims

[angrysparrow]

So, we've tried to start this discussion several times now but it keeps going off the rails. See the DM thread entitled 'Really' for background. Let's see if we can't talk about this clearly and calmly, please.

Clark recently updated their 'Features' page to include a couple of lines about 1.1 and 1.7 oz fabrics and their durability.

Clark's mosquito-proof bed fabric is more durable and safe than fabric you can find on other brands. Clark hammocks always have a bed fabric that is higher than 2 oz. per yard. If your hammock bed is made of 1.7 oz or 1.1 oz fabric, it is not intended to last nearly as long as a Clark hammock will. Even worse, 1.7 oz and 1.1 oz fabrics will stretch much more than quality Clark bed fabrics. Stretchy bed fabrics turn you into a banana, forcing you to angle yourself in the hammock to overcome the cheap bed. Why not buy a hammock with a quality bed so you can sleep flatter?

That's an interesting set of claims at the end, mostly because so very many members here have had great DIY results, and superb durability from quality 1.1 and 1.7 fabrics. There are even a couple of other manufacturers that use those fabrics in their products with great success. Some think the claims are just a jab at those vendors, which is fine since it's Clark's marketing statements on their own site. But the fabric part of it bears some discussion.

So HF'ers, what do you say? Heavier fabric will indeed stretch less than lighter fabric, but is there a need for heavier fabrics than 1.7 to get durability? If so, at what occupant weight is it needed? Is a single heavier layer more durable than two lighter layers? Have HF'ers made narrower hammocks from heavier fabric in order to get a flat lay without a diagonal position? What were your results?

Let's keep this one on topic please. And Clark owners - this isn't a jab at Clark. The claims raise some interesting questions that are relevant.

[Dutch]

I am sure that thicker the material you use you will get less stretch and it will be more durable. However at 200 pounds I think the 1.7 is a great trade off. I don't hear to many people falling through their hammocks unless something compromised it already. I would think that anything that is safe for you to handle your weight will not have ill effects for stretch.

I have a cuben gathered end and it doesn't stretch at all. It is also as hard as the ground to sleep in so let's not look at stretch as only a negative.

[Riverpirate]

Well are these claims true?

Is 1.1 indeed just a durable and less stretchy than 1.7?

If so, would the 2.0 fabric from Clarks be less stretchy and more durable than 1.7?

I do not have ANY proof that 1.1 is as durable and less stretchy than 1.7 except for the flatness chart on the WB site that seems to indicte that.

It would seem that if a single layer of 1.1 is just a strong and durable as any of the other heavier fabrics there would be no need to use anything else?

I have no idea what product ENO or Grand Trunk uses but they seem a lot thinner and more stretchy and lighter (weight) than the Clark bottom.

I have all of these ENOS, Grand Trunk, WB (dl) and Clark. Just from a laymens view (which I am) the Clark bottom does in fact feel tougher, less stretchy and heavier than the others but I have no proff of that.

[angrysparrow]

...Heavier fabric will indeed stretch less than lighter fabric...

Well are these claims true?

Is 1.1 indeed just a durable and less stretchy than 1.7?

I'm not saying Clark is representing anything wrong. But we can talk about the details surely...

Like I posted above, we are all aware that lighter fabrics do indeed stretch more. But I think occupant weight will have some bearing on the amount of stretch and the durability. And using multiple thinner layers for a fabric bed can be cumulatively strong and durable, it seems.

And I think RamblinRev is right that the geometry of a Clark hammock does have some bearing on the need for a heavier fabric.

[Riverpirate]

I'm not saying Clark is representing anything wrong. But we can talk about the details surely...

You aren't but others have. I have no problems discussing the pros and cons of any hammock. They all have them.
FWIW, I sleep on the diagonal in my Clarks. I personally think you get a flatter lay with ANY material that way. I am still waiting on a manufaturer to make a camping hammock that I can lay 90 deg in.

[BillyBob58]

You aren't but others have. I have no problems discussing the pros and cons of any hammock. They all have them.
FWIW, I sleep on the diagonal in my Clarks. I personally think you get a flatter lay with ANY material that way. I am still waiting on a manufaturer to make a camping hammock that I can lay 90 deg in.

That is essentially a bridge hammock! But really, think about it. The main upward curve in a bridge hammock is left to right, side to side. There doesn't really have to be any curve on the ends, nor end caps even- you could get in and out on the ends. So, you might say you are laying 90*, at least to the curve of the hammock.

I can lay 90* in my Safari, and pretty close in my HH UL Explorer and a Speer 8.5, but only if in full fetal of course.

On the subject of diagonal vs mid-line, at least in a particular hammock, see this thread:
http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/s...360#post474360

EDIT: pardon, I just realized that post is way off topic

[TiredFeet]

Stretch is more a function of material rather than weight per unit area of the same material.

Polyester fabric has almost no stretch in comparison to nylon fabric of the same or nearly the same weight per unit area.

Does Clark disclose the composition of their fabric??

TeeDee has switched exclusively to Polyester and especially microfiber polyester when he can find it for his Bridges for this reason.

Also, I don't have any lab tests, but our practical experiences with TeeDee's microfiber polyester Bridges would indicate also that the mosquitoes either cannot get through it or have a very hard time doing so.

[TiredFeet]

You aren't but others have. I have no problems discussing the pros and cons of any hammock. They all have them.
FWIW, I sleep on the diagonal in my Clarks. I personally think you get a flatter lay with ANY material that way. I am still waiting on a manufaturer to make a camping hammock that I can lay 90 deg in.

That is essentially a bridge hammock! But really, think about it. The main upward curve in a bridge hammock is left to right, side to side. There doesn't really have to be any curve on the ends, nor end caps even- you could get in and out on the ends. So, you might say you are laying 90*, at least to the curve of the hammock.

I can lay 90* in my Safari, and pretty close in my HH UL Explorer and a Speer 8.5, but only if in full fetal of course.

On the subject of diagonal vs mid-line, at least in a particular hammock, see this thread:
http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/s...360#post474360

EDIT: pardon, I just realized that post is way off topic

TeeDee explained to me his way of thinking about the Bridge Hammock: Take a gathered end hammock that is big enough, with enough sag to lay at 90 deg. Now imagine a line in the fabric slightly above your body that is a parabola or catenary. Attach the suspension along that line and extending past the fabric and cut away all of the excess fabric above the line. Rotate the whole thing so that the head and feet point at the trees and you now have a Bridge Hammock. So in a Bridge you are laying on the 90 deg asym. And with all of the useless, excess fabric cut away you have a lighter hammock in the bargain.

[warbonnetguy]

Well are these claims true?

Is 1.1 indeed just a durable and less stretchy than 1.7?

If so, would the 2.0 fabric from Clarks be less stretchy and more durable than 1.7?

I do not have ANY proof that 1.1 is as durable and less stretchy than 1.7 except for the flatness chart on the WB site that seems to indicte that.

this question came up when this thread was in the other forum, and since i didn't get a chance to answer it there, i'll answer it here

yes, what you say is true, lighter fabric is generally weaker and less durable than heavier fabric. [...]

forget for a moment about all other factors that could effect the strength/durability of a hammock, lets assume the basic designs are the same.

is it possible for a hammock made from fabric that is less than 2.0 osy to be much stronger and more durable than one made from 3.0 osy? why of course it is. a double layer of 1.7 makes for a hammock body that weighs 3.4osy, such a hammock (made from 1.7 fabric) would be stronger and more durable because the hammock body is heavier (3.4 vs 3.0)

the weight of the fabric a hammock is made from is completely irrelevant because the only thing that matters in such a case would be the weight/yard of the hammock "body". give me 25yds of momentum 50 (0.7osy) and i could make a hammock that could hold 7000LBs if i used enough layers [...]

[BlackGoat]

yes, what you say is true, lighter fabric is generally weaker and less durable than heavier fabric. but their claims are referring to "Hammocks made from 1.1 and 1.7 fabric ". )

Too me it just a matter of knee-jerk product differentiation due to a drop in Clark's market share. I hold little stock in their marketing data.

I think that the Clark's data in question is a testament to the fact they see they have real competition, something they didn't have as much of until the last 2-3 years.

Years past their only competition were arguably lower quality hammocks and/or hammocks that didn't have comparable features (HH with bottom entry only, or HAAB/Speer hammocks without integrated bugnets). Because of this they held a high price point and considered themselves the Cadillacs of hammocks.

The market has changed, Warbonnet and other manufacturers have provided comparable features but at a lower entry price point. They also have been able to provide lighter options and give the users more variety to tarp styles. There is also a broad awakening in the DIY community on how easily similar hammocks can be built.

I would bet that many buyers who would have normally been drawn to the Clark's have been diverted into Warbonnet hammocks or similar product offerings. I would imagine the main drivers would be cost, weight and features. Other manufacturers seem to be taking note of this movement also and are trying to keep up ie (Hennessy now offering double layer, side entry hammocks).

So my whole thought is that they trying to differentiate themselves from the competition, whether their data is accurate or not. I would think they may have actually limited prospective customers who were interested in their product by putting that info out.

Even if their data is correct and the 1.1 and 1.7 materials are not bug proof or are not as durable, I personally am not swayed. I am not looking for a hammock that is absolutely bomb proof and heavier duty. I am a rhinestone hiker, where I am happy to get out 3-4 times a year. I like a lighter hammock and at the $160-200 price point I can get a lot of hammock for my money and with a little care would expect to get 4-5 years of use, after that I am sure I will want to try out the latest/greatest thing.

BG