-10 and below Weather

[The Rambler]

I am fully aware of the dangers of winter backpacking, and winter camping in general. I have done a 3 month trip on the AT in winter (dec-feb), and a 1.5 month trip in the Adirondacks in Jan. Plus numerous other trips of a few days each.

I am not looking to 'experiment' as I have experienced these temps and conditions before. I am just trying to find the best system for use in a hammock as all of my winter experience has been with a tent or tarp/bivy where i used pads. And where better to ask about hammock insulation than here!

[Alamosa]

Rambler, my comments were not specifically pointed at you or anyone else. In fact you started off saying you are a winter fanatic, so you probably understand what I am describing very well.

A lot of times, working with temps it seems to get lost how different cold temperatures are from just cool ones. In my mind 0* is that boundary.

For example (again not specific to anyone, so hopefully no one has used these numbers), using experiences from 25* as a basis for expectations at -25* (a 50* differential) is as useful as using 75* experiences for that same 25* experience (also a 50* differential). If you have been at 25, you know the differences, if you haven't, you may not recognize how little relevance there is.

In fact, in my opinion, the differences compound as you start pushing the edges of human comfort/existence. A change from -30* to -40* is a bigger change in my mind than 50* to 40*.

Just sharing my observations.

[wisenber]

In fact, in my opinion, the differences compound as you start pushing the edges of human comfort/existence. A change from -30* to -40* is a bigger change in my mind than 50* to 40*.

I'd have to concur. The effects of temperature are more geometric than linear. An inch of down may provide 20 degrees of warmth above 0, but that same inch of down is more likely to provide 10 degrees of warmth in the 0 to minus 20 range. The benefits of down insulation continue to diminish from there.
A prior thread on the topic of cold weather hammock camping had a chart outlining those diminishing returns.

As a result, different methods are often applied to handle extreme low temps.

A hammock sock comprised of a relatively thin thin breathable fabric offers the same benefit as a double walled tent versus a single layer tent. It provides a dead air space without much actual "r value". Still, that dead air space helps to substantially reduce convective heat loss. The tarp is the first layer of defense, and the sock is the second. The subsequent down layers establish a third buffer for heat loss from convection while also providing insulation from conductive heat loss.

Solutions for evaporative and radiant heat loss are also important in getting an extra boost in warmth. While a thick next to skin layer may wick moisture away, a vapor barrier layer can help stabilize the humidity in the micro-climate next to skin. This approach will not only reduce evaporative heat loss, but it can also result in remaining better hydrated by having less insensible perspiration.

[The Rambler]

Ok, so did a little experimenting. None of my sleeping bags in my possession will work as a pod except for the military bag. Which is way too heavy to use. The issue with the other bags is not being able to undo the zipper to get around the ridgeline on the wbbb. So it has to be suspended over the ridgeline so when you zip it up its just wayyy too tight with the bags i have.

Now, that being said. I got to thinking, what about just draping my 15F bag over the ridgeline. The bag has several loops on it that i can either stake it out or wrap shockcord around or something to hold it securely on. With a frost bib in place I think i could keep most of the breath condensation out of it. It is a highly water resistant/ waterproof down bag though which is nice. You could do the opposite and rig it as an extra underquilt and just attach it to the ridgeline.

Has anyone ever tried this? It sounds and looks promising.

[BillyBob58]

I can't quite picture how this would work. With any kind of approach to pod style, you pretty much have to get under that RL. Part of the pod benefit- and a big one to- is the "bag" coming around the bottom ( UQ style), then draping over the hammock edges and, in a perfect world, drapin right down onto- or very close to- your body. This "drape" over the side edges of the hammock prevents cold air from slipping down the sides into any small gap that you might have under you and freezing your back. Nothing accomplishes this as easily and surely as a pod. Though contacting your body on top is less important if you are going to fill the space up with other insulation any way.

If you don't get under that RL, you just end up with something closer to an insulated tent, with a huge space needing to be filled by other insulation if it is very cold. Or, everything just being to tight, as you found. ( but I may be totally not understanding what your asking about.) The right side "wall" on the WBBB is a big enough pod problem ( though manageable) with out adding a RL challenge, seems to me.

If you can drape the bag over the RL, can you not just drape it over the hammock itself, under the RL?

So you must be unable to fully unzip your bags to get rid of the built in foot box? That is the same problem I have with my mummy bags. Can you, or are you willing, to mod the bag so that you can open it fully in order to then be able to close it over the hammock, but under the RL, just like you could a commercial PeaPod?

[G.L.P.]

coldest i was was -7F ... i will say listen to Shug and Cannibal they both live in very cold areas of the country and do alot of winter camping ...
a good person to talk to would be Turk as well but he hasn't been on in months... he is MIA

but everything your being told is pretty much dead one...
think layers

the winter incubator will be a good start i would look into a underquilt protector from Z2ZQ as well... that will be a good start .. also a top cover like what AHE has for the WBBB is something that would help in the cold

also a GOOD winter tarp helps .. with doors... close off the cold from your hammock

[The Rambler]

Yes that is exactly the problem, I can not completely unzip the bag, there is still a footbox section. Yes I could drape it just over the hammock itself, just figured over the RL would create a better dead air space. Though draping over the hammock itself would allow the sides of the bag to overlap a portion of the underquilt, so that would probably work better now that i think about it. I could probably do a makeshift pod out of the bag even though it wont zip up as is. I could snug it up with shockcord, or maybe some clips to hold it closed. I tried my wifes bag, and it unzips all the way but it is 7.3 freaking pounds!! LOL, never knew it was so heavy until i weighed it. My 15f bag is only about 3 lbs, so while I am not opposed to carrying more weight for better insulation, 7 pounds is a little much.

I understand I can go get over/under covers of several different types which would help a great deal and eliminate all issues, or just go out and buy a bag more condusive to being a pod, or buy a peapod itself. My point is I am on a tight budget, so spending any amount on something that i don't have to is what I am trying to avoid. I am trying to find ideas on ways I can use what I already have to make a system that will work well, safely, and reliably until I can spend a little more down the road and buy new gear for the specific purpose.

Come on winter! Get here already so I can get to testing!

[wisenber]

Ok, so did a little experimenting. None of my sleeping bags in my possession will work as a pod except for the military bag. Which is way too heavy to use. The issue with the other bags is not being able to undo the zipper to get around the ridgeline on the wbbb. So it has to be suspended over the ridgeline so when you zip it up its just wayyy too tight with the bags i have.

Now, that being said. I got to thinking, what about just draping my 15F bag over the ridgeline. The bag has several loops on it that i can either stake it out or wrap shockcord around or something to hold it securely on. With a frost bib in place I think i could keep most of the breath condensation out of it. It is a highly water resistant/ waterproof down bag though which is nice. You could do the opposite and rig it as an extra underquilt and just attach it to the ridgeline.

Has anyone ever tried this? It sounds and looks promising.

The one shortcoming of a peapod is the airgap that can form between the occupant and the insulation. Its strongest point is the ability to enclose the occupant and eliminate the drafts that a TQ/UQ solution creates.

It would appear that suspending a bag over a ridgleline would amplify the shortcomings while diminishing the advantages.

Sleeping bag insulation does not create heat. It just reduces conductive and convective heat loss. The closer that insulation is to your body, the more efficient it is at doing that.

With the list of gear that you mentioned, just using the sleeping bag as designed and put a TQ or overbag on top of that would be a more effective use.

While I certainly am a proponent of a Speer Peapod, there are a couple of other options that will come close to its performance. JRB has their line of large quilts which are 11" narrower than a Speer and 30" shorter while being similarly priced. Another would be to get a rectangular sleeping bag that while heavy and bulky may do the job.

To get an idea of how an actual Speer Peapod looks in action, you might want to look at Medicineman's customized approach
. That set up would keep most people warm to minus 30F. I would shoot a video of my ultra cold set up, but it's going to be close to 100 today.

[wisenber]

Y

My point is I am on a tight budget, so spending any amount on something that i don't have to is what I am trying to avoid. I am trying to find ideas on ways I can use what I already have to make a system that will work well, safely, and reliably until I can spend a little more down the road and buy new gear for the specific purpose.

Come on winter! Get here already so I can get to testing!

If that is the case, augmenting your existing UQ with pad(s) and TQ with a bag might be your best route. Making a hammock sock will add to it as well.

[BillyBob58]

Yes that is exactly the problem, I can not completely unzip the bag, there is still a footbox section.
I understand I can go get over/under covers of several different types which would help a great deal and eliminate all issues, or just go out and buy a bag more condusive to being a pod, or buy a peapod itself. My point is I am on a tight budget, so spending any amount on something that i don't have to is what I am trying to avoid. I am trying to find ideas on ways I can use what I already have to make a system that will work well, safely, and reliably until I can spend a little more down the road and buy new gear for the specific purpose.

Come on winter! Get here already so I can get to testing!

If that is the case, augmenting your existing UQ with pad(s) and TQ with a bag might be your best route. Making a hammock sock will add to it as well.

I only just realized that Rambler already has a Burrow and Incubator!

So, not trying to steer you away from the pod approach- because it is a really sweet approach- but if

I am trying to find ideas on ways I can use what I already have to make a system that will work well, safely, and reliably until I can spend a little more down the road

is the main thing, it only makes sense to augment what you have, and there are a lot of ways to do that without having to come up with a pod approach. ( sorry, I am blaspheming my own preferences! )

I have missed this if stated: are your TQs/UQs 3 season or 4?

Obviously, depending on which, just start adding as Wisenber et all already stated. Just a space blanket between hammock and UQ will add 10 to 20F, increase wind blocking a bit, and help keep condensation out of your UQ. I have used it this way many times in both my PeaPod and my HHSS. Works for me anyway.

Still not enough on bottom? Hmmmm. Well, there is of course always addition of a pad or auto sunscreen for those most severe temps. And you might get by with just a torso pad. If it is thick enough, you can do whatever temps needed.

Lastly ( at least using what you have and with or without a pad or space blanket) forget the pod but figure out how to convert one of your bags to an UQ which will surround your incubator on the bottom and sides.

On top? I'm betting you already have a deep winter bag, right? Just use it in the hammock, with the Burrow draped over it as needed. While not as comfy as a PeaPod maybe, it will have all of the anti-draft and hood/collar advantages of the PeaPod. If you find getting in a bag in a hammock too tough, then just leave something on the ground to stand on( for keeping bag dry), put one or both feet in the bag while standing, pull hood over head and zip up partially or mostly, sit/lay down. Done!

I have lately been playing with a mummy bag and what I call a hybrid quilt/bag approach which is great in a hammock. I REALLY like this. Using the two way bag zippers and/or the Velcro/snap hood/neck collar closure, I leave the bag closed up in the neck/collar area and wide open to the foot box. While laying down in hammock, I just slip in that side opening with feet in the foot box and head in the hood. That's it. Works great. In most, but not all, positions I can still use the neck collar and hood. Or, I can use a separate hood and use the bag hood as an insulated pillow. The bag stays positioned around me quite well even though it is really more quilt style. It seems very draft resistant indeed.

The disadvantage: it does not save the weight/volume a quilt does compared to a bag. The advantage: still retains much of the draft free benefits of a bag while still having all of the comfort and convenience of a quilt. It tucks around me real snug while the neck collar guarantees things are draft free through the night. I have liked this so much that I have considered replacing my quilts with separate hood with an UL mummy bag(my bags are pretty heavy). It might not even have to be as wide as I usually like my bags, since any bag(though used as a quilt) is usually already so much wider than most quilts any way.

And don't forget, for those well below zero temps, VB clothing to gain more degrees PLUS keep you down bone dry. Just ask Wisenber about how that worked for him. Very interesting story.