Down vs. polyester fil

[Annie]

Thanks for the welcome, Lost!
I laughed when I read your post about making gear and power tools.
Looks like if I can figure out some inexpensive ways to make some of this gear, I might be able to make a little extra cash taking orders. I've sewn since I was 6 and I'm 55.. yikes!

I think I almost have to agree with HE.
In today's world with all the great nysil pack covers, tarps, etc. it would be a difficult job to get so soaked unless you fell into a river or something.

I love the feel of down, and the compression factor.
Hmmm... I'll have to mull this over.
I like the idea of making both types of quilt.
I'm going camping next weekend and that means I need something quick so for this trip, I may use something like joanne's poly, since it's a car trip. I'm also calling about some climashield and thermafil today to see if I can get it shipped quick enough to finish the quilt for my trip.

I have done a lot of trekking/backpacking, but never in cold, cold, wet, wet weather. I usually go places where there are refuges or alburgues, like Camino Santiago or other pilgrimage routes. You can see my last long trek at
www.myspace.com/caminosantiago2 It did not require shelter, but I'm going to take the southern route in the fall, and hope to use my HH.

I also do a lot of car camping and one of the MAIN reasons I'm buying my Hennessy is because as I age, sleeping on the ground becomes more and more painful. I'm hoping this will save my back.

I suspect not every trip requires down... but that sure will be a future project.

[ozzy_109]

has anyone here ever thought of trying Kapok fibers, i ask because i live in england and it is next to impossible to get loose down so my only alternative would be to buy a down bag, jacket etc and rip it open. i have used an old synthetic bag as a under quilt . it works well but is very bulky. from what i have read kapok is allot like down but it is made from plant fibers and is seemingly water resistant i.e. behaves like synthetic this is backed up by actually beining used in life vests. over here it used to be used instead of down for duvets but stopped being used due to the flammability of it. however in the case of a hammock a fire would be just as bad with down.

[Ramblinrev]

If I am thinking of the same material, they must have come a long way in the manufacturing and processing of Kapok. When I was a kid the life jackets we had were stuffed with kapok. It was a nasty bulky non-compressible wad of crud that was buoyant until it got waterlogged and then you sank like a rock. All this to say.... from my perspective the word Kapok conjures up images that would not be conducive to my choice of the material as a replacement for down. If my memory serves me poorly, blame it on age. If kapok in the US is different than in Britain then blame it on my ignorance. But I personally wouldn't waste my time or my money on even an experiment. YMMV.

edit: The US Coast Guard has for years prohibited the use of Kapok in approved PDF's. Other countries laws and standards may vary.

[hacktorious]

I am currently in the process of retiring my 2 yr down quilts. The synthetic stuff keeps me warmer, and is much better when wet. Yes, STUFF happens, and I have had problems with water in the past.

I do not like down because if you do have an issue with water, your trip is ruined. Besides that, my synthetic stuff is much more durable. Also, there is the the animal ethics issue for me.

[Youngblood]

Coffee,

I think the advancement made in calendering and applying Durable Water Repellent (DWR) finishes on fabrics impacted the down sleeping bags getting wet issue.

The first ultralight sleeping bags that maintained a high level of breathability and used improved DWR seemed like a miracle. Most everyone had to make a trip to an outfitter and see for themselves that you could literally pour an ounce or so of water into an indention on the sleeping bag, look around the store for 15 minutes, and then pour practically all that water back into its container. It was one of those "Do you believe that!" moments.

[slowhike]

yep, i don't think the concerns about down getting wet are really that much more than concerns w/ synthetics getting wet.

[BillyBob58]

I just saw this e-mail over at the Integral Designs web site. It reminds me that the down vs synthetic choice depends on your need for survivability regardless of where you are. And it reminds me of an experience one of my NOLS instructors told me of, when he fell through the ice into the Yellowstone river. Fortunately in that case, all clothing and sleeping bag were synthetic. At that time at least, NOLS would allow nothing else. They figured in 30 days way in the Wilderness, sooner or later somebody and their stuff was going to get wet. As long as ( when everything goes wrong an lot's of stuff happens) you can get out in a few hours or a long days hike, you don't have to worry about it so much. But if it will take you two or more days to reach your car or help, it needs more consideration.

In February while spying for new ice in Alaska, I was climbing up shelf ice around one of the many deep swirling pools, when I lost my footing and plunged into the icy cold current of the Alaskan River. After many terrifying minutes, my clothing and everything in my pack was completely soaked.
Within 10 minutes of crawling inside my soggy North Twin sleeping bag, I had the shivers under control. Ten minutes later I was warm and relaxed enough to get a trickle charge. I want to thank you for making a product, which in my mind saved my life. This is one piece of gear that I will "never" leave home without!
John Bradford
2000-May-13
High Ice Ak

Stuff happens. And depending on where you are, sometimes really troubling stuff can happen.

Now, ID makes both down and synthetic bags/clothing, so they have no reason to be biased for one over the other, except their down products are more expensive. Unlike Wiggy's site, who hates everything other than the particular synthetic bags he makes. But his site is also full of testimonials similar to the above.

But in a disaster like the above, if you still had to spend a couple of days and nights in the wilderness below freezing, and all of you clothing and sleeping gear was down, I think you would be in serious trouble.

BTW, a bit off topic- but, I just had my Claytor/PeaPod out in 24 hours of rain/wind, occasionally heavy, mostly unoccupied but sometimes with me in it. Under the JRB tarp standard A frame pitch. The webbing straps were soaked up to the cinch buckles. But every thing inside of the CBs was bone dry! Except the ground. Because the lake that is my backyard just flowed right under the tarp. But hammock and down PeaPod could not have been drier, even using the 10 foot long Claytor! The PeaPod was at full puffiness. I had a RL on the Claytor set for my comfort, which amounts to it being shortened a bit with a moderate amount of sag.

[BillyBob58]

P.S.
I suppose that in situation such as the above, falling in a creek or lake, it would be possible to have your down items (that you were not wearing) so well waterproofed in dry sack or equivalents, that your gear could still be dry. I don't know if a sil-nylon sack would be enough. But many backpackers find there "waterproof" stuff sacks and pack covers disappoint them. With down, I suggest REALLY making SURE you can keep it dry in your pack and under your tarp. Of course, your tarp or tent can spring a bad leak (as happened to my friend last early fall) or a tree branch can fall through it, giving you a REALLY bad leak. Not likely. But stuff happens. I've seen it happen. And when it does, well, there you are.

If you did not have all down, but have enough synthetic items to not so much keep you warm while sleeping, yet enough to keep you from dieing, then you might not even have to abandon your trip. You would simply have a miserable night or two, with hopefully enough sunshine to dry out your down quilts during the next day or two.

But if I had the misfortune to get everything I had soaked or even really damp, I have no doubt which I would rather be in. We used to do (sometimes) multiple river crossings on that NOLS course. Once by way of Tyrolean traverse during a June snowstorm, but mostly just by wading. We would take our socks off, strip to our underwear, put our boots back on, link arms and cross. The ice cold water would cause us to whoop and holler mightily. Then on the other side, we would sit for a few minutes while our upside down boots drained, get dressed and get going- until the next crossing. I wore some navy blue polyester fleece hiking pants, which was called "bunting". I finally quit taking them off, because they were filthy, and I would just wade through the river waist deep with my pants on. To my amazement, those soaked pants provided a very slight benefit while in the river and even more once I was out of the river, compared to bare skin. But most amazing was that within just a very short time of resumed hiking, they would seem to be quite dry. That always amazed me. Also, on more than one night many a hiker would crawl into a fairly dry bag with wet socks or clothing, only to wake up quite dry- bag and clothing, by the next morning.

[Shug]

I'm just curious if there's a reason people are using down vs. polyester fill for their quilts? It seems the poly would be safer, as far as getting it wet goes?

I'm a quilter and this looks like an easy project, but before I get started, just wondered what the pros/cons of down/poly were to the old timers?

I've just purchased my hammock so I have NO experience yet.
Going out next weekend for the first time!
YAY!

Hey Annie,
Sometimes I feel the down vs synthetic is like hammocks vs tents or alcohol vs gas etc. Personally I am a down man but do have synthetic clothing I bring as well as down bag and underquilt. My cold weather pants are synth and so is my pullover. But I also have a down vest so I combine and feel safe that way. Keeping my bag in a stuffsack and wrapped in a trash compactor bag is easy and gives me peace of mind.
Study survival skills and think out your "worst case scenario" plans and you can implement that action if need be.
Looks like you live in wetter weather so........
Too many choices is a good thing I reckon.
Just have fun and be safe.
This is a public service announcement from Shug

[tight-wad]

Chevy vs. Ford, chocolate vs vanilla, beer vs wine, Methodist or Baptist, Republican or Democrat, ....

I prefer down. Packable cubic inches, weight, warmth, tough to beat, ...

... but Shug makes a good compromise, Synthetics for clothing, which has a higher probability of getting wet, vs down for sleeping, which you can take extra precautions to protect from moisture.