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  1. #21
    Senior Member
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    [QUOTE=motorapido;586505]I splurged and had one constructed from cuben fiber. I think Zpacks made it for me. Canít remember.

    Update. Yes, it was zpacks. Here is the link to the product. Amazingly tough for being so thin and light. I love cuben fiber (but my wallet doesn't).
    http://www.zpacks.com/accessories/cloudliner.shtml

  2. #22
    Senior Member turnerminator's Avatar
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    The thought of getting out of a VB liner in very low temps in wet underwear doesn't appeal to me at all-I struggle enough getting out in the summer!

    VB sleep clothing seems a much better way of doing things for a couple of reasons;

    You can wear it in the day too.
    Getting out for a midnight snow yellowing trip wont be anywhere near as painful.
    The painful taking off of the VB in the morning is halved as its done in 2 stages.
    You can wear clothes to warm up in the morning without changing out of wet thermals and getting your insulating layers damp-make a hot drink, then change clothes.


    I looked at Stephensons VB clothing and RBH's cuben VB clothing and thought " Sauna Suit!"

    I found a boxing company on ebay selling a PU coated, aluminized polyester sweat suit . I got the suit, tried it on and weighed it ( as we do);

    70g bottoms, 130g top, cut the same as a track-suit. Result! Comfy, waterproof, light and aluminized.

    Coupled with my toasty RBH Vaprthrm socks and some VB gloves, this should keep my insulation dry at night, without being imprisoned.

  3. #23
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by str8dog View Post

    It's my understanding that one of the most important considerations when using a VBL, is that even if you like to sleep toasty warm, you need to actively regulate your system so that you sleep cool.

    The VBL is designed to regulate the small amount of moisture your body passively gives off, by creating a microclimate such that the water content in the airspace between the VBL and your body, equals the moisture level your body is giving off. When this balance is reached, your body quits shedding this moisture, (picture osmosis) and you sleep in a comfortable environment.

    If you start getting warm and fail to recognize this and shed some layers of insulation in time, your body actively tries to cool itself by sweating. If you start to sweat in your VBL, you mess up this balance and you end up wet and shivering.

    The traditional advice of eating hearty and warm up with exercise before retiring for the night is contraindicated for VBL use.

    Starting the night with a dry non-cotton sleepset and sleeping cool seems to be the key to success with VBL's.

    Comments?
    Take this with a grain of salt as I have never slept in full VB. Only with a VB under my hammock and VB sock. I agree that it is good to pay close attention to your warmth level and adjust insulation, because it is more comfortable to not feel like you are swimming in sweat. But I really don't think that you are going to be cold if you mess it up and do sweat. Unpleasant yes, but not cold until you choose to come out of the VB.

    Why not? Because sweat = cold by several pathways. 1: it evaporates and causes evaporative cooling, it's primary function. 2: It conducts heat faster than dead air, after it has dampened or soaked your insulation. 3: Wet/damp down tends to decrease in loft, decreasing it's insulation ability.

    That is all I can think of right now, are there any more?

    But all of the above are reduced to zero effect by a VB. Even if you go past the "humid" VB feeling to actually having liquid sweat inside your VB, it can not get past the VB. It won't evaporate, carrying heat away from the skin. And it can not reach your insulation to mess that up.

    It will, for most of us, feel really unpleasant to be floating in sweat. And as it can not evaporate, it is not going to dry out after a few hours. And when you take the VB off, that sweat soaked underwear/sock and wet skin are really going to get a cold blast and for longer, as all of that liquid dries out(evaporates). And it will take longer to dry than if just damp from vapor/high humidity.

    I could be wrong, and I don't have that much VB experience. But I am sure I have sweated in VB socks, and it has not given me cold feet. I have once or twice found a few drops of liquid( either sweat or condensed vapor) on my space blankets, but it has not made me cold. But the folks extensively using VBs should have more info on this. Like the OP. And Wisenber, where are you, Bro?
    For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us....that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
    Romans 8:18,21-22

  4. #24
    SeŮor Member wisenber's Avatar
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    I've played around with VB for the past couple of years. I've found several things that work and some that do not:
    1.) I found VB clothing more useful than VB liners. With VB clothing, I can put other layers of clothing over the VB. With a VB liner, you can only wear a thin next to skin layer of clothing for it to work. The VB clothing can also be used outside of the hammock if needed during the day.

    2.) Don't bother with VB anything until it is well below freezing. The benefits of VB do not materialize until the outside air is dry and the temps are several degrees below freezing.

    3.) VB clothing will keep your down intact and near the original weight for much longer than without. A night or two usually will not result in catastrophic down failure, but beyond that, the freezing and thawing within the insulation will add weight and reduce insulation.

    4.) As mentioned in an earlier post, VB clothing is more forgiving than a VB liner. Late night nature calls are much easier to handle without being exposed in wet clothing. On the flip side, the layers (if any) worn beneath the Vb will dry VERY quickly first thing in the morning. I usually stand up and take the top off first. What little bit of condensation that was there will evaporate in seconds. Put on a puffy layer after that, and you are good to go in the morning.

    5.) Unless it is EXTREMELY COLD, VB is not that great to wear while hiking. I'd peg the benefit to hiking VB closer to 0 F than 0 C.

    6.) Do not leave VB on all day. You have to give your skin (feet in particular) time to actually dry. Not doing so can result in tench foot. In extreme cold, VB will prevent frost bite but foster trench foot.

    In short, VB is a totally counter-intuitive approach from what most of us have been taught. The temptation to try it any time it is cold should be avoided while saving it for time that it is actually well below freezing. I've found that it not only decreases the moisture and need to dry down, but also boosts perceived warmth AND reduces night time dehydration. That being said, go with VB clothing over VB liners for better results.

  5. #25
    Crawldaddy's Avatar
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    How about using tyvek?

    I thought of making an easy tyvek bag/liner to sleep inside of with my top quilt over me. What say you?

  6. #26
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crawldaddy View Post
    I thought of making an easy tyvek bag/liner to sleep inside of with my top quilt over me. What say you?
    I say- if that is a true VB- prepare to be way warmer than otherwise. And prepare to be between very slightly damp and quite damp, so wear minimal clothing inside the VB bag. Whatever you wear will be slightly damp or soaked, probably depending on the outside temp and your skill at regulating/venting.

    There is some wierd head stuff when getting used to this. More than once I have felt a bit of "uh oh" when I was aware of a damp sensation and the mind says "I'm about to be cold, run away!". But then soon comes the awareness of "hey, I might be damp/wet, but boy am I warm!". Once the humidity gets to 100%, evaporative cooling will stop. And if you don't over heat, actual sweat should not be a problem. But if you do sweat, it stays inside with you and your very thin layers.

    So in addition to no evaporative cooling, your down stays bone dry no matter how cold it is or how long your trip. That can only be a good thing, i.e. bone dry down.
    For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us....that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
    Romans 8:18,21-22

  7. #27
    Senior Member Newzy's Avatar
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    Would 100% polyester long underwear be considered a partial VB? Also Insultex fabric as an inner layer of a down to UQ to limit moisture transfer to the down? Had made a IX UQ and TQ but was too warn for use above 35f. Maybe sleep in IX TQ with a 40f downbag over it?

  8. #28
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newzy View Post
    Would 100% polyester long underwear be considered a partial VB? Also Insultex fabric as an inner layer of a down to UQ to limit moisture transfer to the down? Had made a IX UQ and TQ but was too warn for use above 35f. Maybe sleep in IX TQ with a 40f downbag over it?
    On the poly long johns, no, not ant I have ever had. They have all been pretty breathable. A VB is opposite of breathable.

    The IX is claimed to be breathable, but MacEntyre does not seem to think it is very breathable at all. So, it may function as a VB or partial VB.
    For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us....that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
    Romans 8:18,21-22

  9. #29
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    I have been pondering the nature and use of VBs.

    Tyvek is not and will never be a VB. It's made to breathe by design. DriDucks are not a VB, they are the most breathable rainwear out there.

    Vapor barriers are plastic, cuben, coated nylon - without holes or vents. The old version of the Adventure Medical bivvy, an emergency blanket, a plastic 2 mm sheet, a trash bag, are all examples of a vapor barrier.

    I'm probably going to start carrying a large contractor bag - it's a dual use item since we are supposed to have trash bags for search and rescue for other reasons. The contractor bag actually finds its way into my day packs as an emergency bivvy. It would made a sleeping bag liner in a pinch.

  10. #30
    DivaB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnerminator View Post
    The thought of getting out of a VB liner in very low temps in wet underwear doesn't appeal to me at all-I struggle enough getting out in the summer!

    VB sleep clothing seems a much better way of doing things for a couple of reasons;

    You can wear it in the day too.
    Getting out for a midnight snow yellowing trip wont be anywhere near as painful.
    The painful taking off of the VB in the morning is halved as its done in 2 stages.
    You can wear clothes to warm up in the morning without changing out of wet thermals and getting your insulating layers damp-make a hot drink, then change clothes.


    I looked at Stephensons VB clothing and RBH's cuben VB clothing and thought " Sauna Suit!"

    I found a boxing company on ebay selling a PU coated, aluminized polyester sweat suit . I got the suit, tried it on and weighed it ( as we do);

    70g bottoms, 130g top, cut the same as a track-suit. Result! Comfy, waterproof, light and aluminized.

    Coupled with my toasty RBH Vaprthrm socks and some VB gloves, this should keep my insulation dry at night, without being imprisoned.
    I like this idea....I'm not sure if I like enough to try it, but maybe, or perhaps in stages. I think if I could get my chronic CBS under control the rest of me would be so much happier. Do you put on some kind of long johns or something under the sauna suit to sleep in?

    I can't remember the temps where VB is recommended and where I had read that before. Is something like between 40 and 25 degrees F for VB? Then cotton/canvas breathable fabric 25 and below? I'm probably not even close, but there was a break down. I'll look for that again.

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