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  1. #11
    Senior Member Dos's Avatar
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    oddly enough, I had just finished reading this other thread:

    http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/s...ad.php?t=41332

    and an overview of cold weather camping by MacEntyre:

    Technical Note on Canvas for Extreme Cold
    I thought I would explain something that has become clear to me lately.

    FourDog and others say, "20*F and below, use breathable footwear and outerwear. 20*F and above, use waterproof footwear and outerwear." Sometimes they use 10*F as the breakpoint. Whatever temperature you use, the concept is intuitively obvious. Still, I wondered, why won't other materials work as well? Why canvas?

    There have been several threads on the continuum of waterproof vs breathable. There is a third leg to that stool: windproof. Canvas is highly windproof and highly breathable. Untreated canvas doesn't handle water well. Other fabrics are water resistant, windproof and breathable, but none are as windproof and as breathable as canvas. Why does that matter?

    It all became clear to me when I realized what temperature differential we have between our bodies and the ambient conditions. At -15*F, there is a 100 degree difference between our skin and the air! If it's 85*F at your skin, and -15*F outside, that's 100*F difference... that's huge! Still, why does that make canvas so special?

    Everyone has heard that nature abhors a vacuum. Nature also abhors a differential. When ever there is a difference in something across a boundary, there is a natural driving force to level it out. This works with water levels, salt concentrations, and many other things, including temperature differences.

    Temperature differential is the driving force of heat transfer. The higher the temperature differential across an insulator, the more heat will be lost through the insulator. What makes this important in extreme cold weather is the other differential, which works hand in glove with temperature: humidity.

    Inside your toasty nest, it could be 50% relative humidity or higher. Outside your hammock and all of your insulation, it could be -15*F and 30% relative humidity or much lower. That is a relative humidity differential of 20% or more. However, it is a much larger humidity differential that you would think, just looking at relative humidity.

    At 50*F and 50% relative humidity, the absolute humidity is 25 grams per cubic meter, and the dew point is 26*F. Compare that to -15*F and 30% humidity, where the absolute humidity is 0.5 grams per cubic meter. Using absolute humidity, which measures the actual amount of water in the air, there are 25 grams per cubic meter inside your hammock, and only a trace of water vapor in the air outside! That is a gigantic difference.

    So, what happens is the temperature and humidity differences work together to drive both heat and moisture out of your hammock, right through your insulation. The result is both heat loss and condensation. There is no way to avoid either in such extreme conditions. Heat loss can be minimized by using lots of insulation. Condensation can be minimized, too. How? By using breathable insulation with canvas outside! (You saw that coming, right?)

    The canvas will keep out the cold wind, but allow the moisture through. The trick is to get most of the moisture to go right through your insulation in the vapor phase, without condensing and making ice. For that to happen, a highly breathable outer layer is required. Canvas doesn't inhibit the flow of water vapor through your insulation, so it allows the water vapor to escape into the air without much condensation.

    Of course, your clothing and hammock insulation must be breathable for all this to work. For instance, if you have a vapor barrier under your hammock, that stops the moisture cold, so to speak. With luck, you won't find ice crystals there when you hang in Minnesota!

    Think about what happens if you use waterproof boots in extreme cold. There is a lot of water generated by your feet when you are active. ("Over 2 cups per day!" says FourDog.) If your boots are waterproof, that water stays in. It gets into your socks and the insulation of your boots. Then, you remove your foot and go to sleep. If you don't dry out the inside of your boots, all that water will freeze. OTOH, canvas and leather mukluks are highly breathable, so the moisture goes right out into the ambient air, so that socks and liners are relatively dry when you remove your feet.

    Extreme cold air will dry you out fast. That's why we have to rehydrate more than normal in those conditions. We make that attribute work to our advantage when we use breathable insulation covered with canvas. We get that cold air to pull the moisture right out of our insulation, without condensing, so that our insulation doesn't collect ice crystals, and remains in top condition to keep us warm.

    Of course, there is another side to this story, and I welcome folks to explain that as well. I just wanted to explain what I have learned about breathable systems with canvas, and why it works. It has been a lot of fun making traditional anoraks, mukluks and hammock socks using canvas, and seeing them work just like they are supposed to do. I hope this helps folks understand why.

    - MacEntyre
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~

    AT '12. AT '14. FT '15. CA '15.

  2. #12
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    Jeff, Where is your zipper? I now think I'll make it like pappa smurf's or with a zipper to get in and out and for ventilation.

  3. #13
    New Member JJ_Cottonwood's Avatar
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    Flapping winter sock help

    I tried a sock based on the info I found here. No condensation down to 21 last night. I patterned it after papa smurfs design patterns in his gallery. It is very warm with my Peapod sleeping bag mod. My problem is with the extra material at head end . It flaps in a breeze and hits me in the face from every direction it seems. It looks tight until I tighten up my shock cord at head end. Can anyone recommend a fix. I was thinking of sewing on pull outs and staking sides. I used 64" 1.1 and sewed two pieces together. Is it just too wide ?

    Thanks for any help. I just can't use it another night with the flapping material. Lol

  4. #14
    Senior Member WV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JJ_Cottonwood View Post
    I tried a sock based on the info I found here. No condensation down to 21 last night. I patterned it after papa smurfs design patterns in his gallery. It is very warm with my Peapod sleeping bag mod. My problem is with the extra material at head end . It flaps in a breeze and hits me in the face from every direction it seems. It looks tight until I tighten up my shock cord at head end. Can anyone recommend a fix. I was thinking of sewing on pull outs and staking sides. I used 64" 1.1 and sewed two pieces together. Is it just too wide ?

    Thanks for any help. I just can't use it another night with the flapping material. Lol
    Sewing on pull-outs is a good idea. I use pullouts on my hammock tent (which is really just a sock that reaches the ground under the middle of the hammock). I rig it to keep a constant distance between the sock/tent and the hammock. My tieouts happen to line up with asym hammock tie-outs and asym tarp guy-lines, but that's not essential. I just did it to minimize the number of stakes needed and to have fewer lines to trip over.

    You could also try putting darts in your sock to make it fit the shape of the hammock better. Experiment by taking a bunch of clothes pins and pinching the fabric where it's loose. Socks are easier to modify than most of the other pieces of gear that we use. When you find a shape that works well with your new tie-outs, sew it up. (Warning: you will end up with a "Frankin-sock" but it may let you sleep in peace.)

    There's another method you you can use to keep the sock away from the hammock (and you can do this in combination with tie-outs and reshaping the sock): Risk uses "Wind Bumpers". See his site for a picture. He says directions for making one are on another page, but I couldn't find it. I think they are like a method I use. I have a pocket sewn on the outside of my hammock right where my left shoulder pushes on it. That's where I put my down parka at night. It makes a big insulated buffer next to my shoulder, and because it's on the outside of the hammock, the pressure of my shoulder can't compress the insulation provided by the parka.

    By the way, Just Jeff has good info here.
    Last edited by WV; 12-22-2011 at 20:40.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Just Jeff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charley View Post
    Jeff, Where is your zipper? I now think I'll make it like pappa smurf's or with a zipper to get in and out and for ventilation.
    WV linked to my second version, which has the zipper along the ridgeline. One of my design goals was to be able to put the sock on and take it off while the hammock was hung, but the zipper wasn't long enough to make it completely removable. With that design, I could remove it almost all the way, then stuff it into a blackbishop sock at the end for quick storage and deployment.

    I don't have a page made yet for my third version, but it's similar. There's still a bit of fabric at the foot end so it's not entirely removable. From there, the zipper curves down towards the head and back up. That way, I can lay zipped up with only my head sticking out...much warmer, condensation reduced, better view, etc. I like this model best so far. (Plus it's olive green, which is much cooler than silver! )

    Here's the thread with pics:
    http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/s...ad.php?t=25938
    “Republics are created by the virtue, public spirit, and intelligence of the citizens. They fall when the wise are banished from the public councils because they dare to be honest, and the profligate are rewarded because they flatter the people, in order to betray them.” ~Judge Joseph Story

    - My site: http://www.tothewoods.net/
    - Designer, Jeff's Gear Hammock / Pack Cover by JRB

    IMPOSSIBLE JUST TAKES LONGER

  6. #16
    Senior Member WV's Avatar
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    zipper location

    Coincidentally, I'm in the process of making a new hammock tent prototype (aka, a sock with a floor), and this time the zipper is vertical, midway on one side of the hammock. When I sit in the hammock, the zipper is in front of me, from the ridgeline down to the ground. I agree that it would be nice to have a sock design that could be installed or removed from a hammock that's already hanging, but it's not something I've worked on yet.

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