Tarp Pole Mod

[Black Wolf]

I have read, and re-read this thread, searching for clarity that just won't come. Just when I think I've staked out a position, that little voice says, "Yeah, but..."

In a perfect world...

This is where I'm at ...

Even as I begin to write my thoughts I feel aversion, not something I'm accustomed to, although when the Mensa caliber minds are all gathered on the same thread, it's bound to provoke the deepest of thoughts. Mine run as deep as the sea. Most of the pertinent points have been made here.

The "pole-mod" is certainly not a new concept or we'd have every tent manufacturer on our heels. The application is.

It's tuff for me to sit on my hands when I see someone taking a beating. Having had Wilderness Logics gear with me, I can say his gear is made to the highest standards that have been set forth amongst the elevated perspective of this elite group of people. I can also attest that his customer service meets that same benchmark. Marty's manufacturing experience is more then likely longer then any vender connected with this forum. Wilderness Logics has also supported many of the "Hammock Hangs" with his donations to the raffles held at these.

The "pole-mod" has been pulled from his website, if this isn't a show of respect and willingness to abide within the ethical standards flowing throughout this community, then I know of none. I challenge any of the {without pointing fingers} copycat venders popping up to do the same thing !!

When you buy from a small Mom and Pop business, you are not helping a CEO buy a third vacation home.

You are helping a little girl get dance lessons, a little boy get his team jersey, a Mom or Dad put food on the table, a family pay a mortgage, or a student pay for college.

Their customers are their shareholders and WE are the ones they strive to make US happy.

So much for a loss of words .. and on a lighter note .....

Dear Optimist, Pessimist and Realist,

While you guys were busy arguing about the glass of water, I drank it !!

Sincerely,
The Opportunist

[weird1]

In some defense of the OP, most people who take generic prescription drugs also "don't care" who came out with it first, they just want to reap the benefits of what that product does for them. I personally see the pole mod as a service rather than a product per se. I used have a Mt. Hwdr. tent that could be set up with the fly alone (sans tent) using the tent poles, is that so different from a tarp supported by poles? I guess my opinion is that there is a thin and blurry line between true innovation, and adaptation of existing design. Someone making Blackbird clones would IMO be out of line, but someone supporting a tarp with poles would be, I guess, copying the first company to make a hoop tent or similar with flexible poles. When you distill things down to the basic concept of whats really happening ie: fabric supported by poles, its hard to say who's idea that is. As I've said before in another thread, there are a number of gathered end hammock manufactures out there and no one seems to mind or feel that someone stole their design. Who should be credited with the gathered end hammock?
I have rarely, if ever, had an original idea, and I may adapt several different ideas into something that works for me, and if I make a video about it (as I so often do) I try to credit those who inspired the work. Take the Nacrabiener for example, Nacra credited Kohlhoff for the idea, but "we" effectively renamed Kohlhoffs product for a forum member. It just seems that we are not overly consistent with what we deem to be appropriate behavior. Thats just my opinion on the subject, as if anyone asked for it.

I am no singling you out Red, I just want to clarify a little on your examples, at least from my prespective. The difference between what is being discussed here and your Nacrabiner example is Nacra showed everyone how to make and use the idea, and encouraged people to do so. The style of pole mod here was being worked on by several people at the same time apparently, my self included. While a seemingly simple idea it is not as simple as it seems. Paul won the race with a truly great product, which started quite a few discussions of people to trying to duplicate it as a DIY, which is great, just like all of the diy info on this forum. The problem is when the idea is used to make a profit is when lines are crossed, and toes are stepped on. There are several posts on a diy blackbird clone, which is great, but if some one started selling them openly I would wager that there would be quite an up roar. The difference? Personal use vs personal gain.

I had been working on a similar pole mod for my OMW tarp to great frustration, when Muse posted about his new AHE tarp. After I studied the pics, and talked to Paul I abandoned my mod, and purchased one from AHE. Why? Because he had solved the issues I was having with my mod, and he was willing to custom build a tarp with his pole mod to my specs. My problem was solved, and all I had to do was buy my tarp.

The mod that WL offered had all of the shortcomings that everyone myself included was running into with the diy versions of this mod. It also was heavier, and cost about the same as the AHE offering.

I also feel certain that this thread would have gone much differently had the OP not been so uncaring, it was he who set the tone of this thread, which in my opinion has been handled well by all since, including Marty, who makes great gear.


I will now get off of my soap box.

[Redoleary]

I didn't mean to imply that Nacra did anything wrong with his post. I am all about sharing how I do something with anyone who wants to listen. No offense taken wierd1, and please don't view this as argumentative.
My point is that, because of his "how- to", soft shackles are avail thru the hammock camping cottage vendors, who make functionally identical shackles to those which could be purchased for the boating industry by much larger companies. Nobody here seems to mind, myself included. But woe betide the vendor who makes a poncho/UQ. I think making clones to sell is wrong, but I think there's enough room here for both Ford and Chevy to have 4 wheels on their car, same basic concept, different execution. If the WL pole mod (which I have not seen) was a clone, then fair enough, take it off the website, but if its a tarp with poles in it, then let the market decide. Good on Marty for not stirring the pot and simply bowing out.
I'll end by saying that it is hard to know where the line is, it is both fine and not exactly laser straight, you will however, be informed when you've crossed it or gotten too close to it.

[oldgringo]

LOL, the line ain't fine, Red, it's broad, has fuzzy margins, and is constantly moving.

[Redoleary]

LOL, the line ain't fine, Red, it's broad, has fuzzy margins, and is constantly moving.

Yes, that is a more accurate description of the line.

[G.L.P.]

i think most of you hit the Nail on the head (Dutch,AS,Knotty,Adam,Grizz )
this is a fine line and sometimes it's hard not to cross it ..
anyone who knows me knows my stand on cloning gear if it's for yourself Go for it... if you plan To make money off someone else Work.. Don't
it's hard to come up with new ideas with so many like minded DIYers out there and i consider most of the small vendors still DIYers cause thats what they started out as but one think i look for is original touch .... yes most UQ's will have channel suspension and most tarps will have pull outs but what i look for it that little something that makes it there's ... and that can be hard
we have so many new vendors popping up over night anymore it can make your head spin .The thing i find is a lot of them really don't do there homework before hand and just clone products that are out there ... not saying it's bad or calling anyone out but it's the truth and it's where we are right now as a community that is growing very fast with bigger needs to fill
Most members know i'm a BIG DIYer .... and sometimes i get asked the question... How do i becomes a vendor.. why i get asked this is beyond me but i do and my answer is "Be Original"
thats how the good vendors stand out and why i take my business to them
but it all comes down to the fine line ..... and at some point i think there is going to be the next evolution in Hammocks and this community and it's going to be more commercial driven it's all part of the evolution of what started out in someones back yard or basement or where ever it did

[canoebie]

I really appreciate this discussion. Another reminder of why I spend time here. I am really glad for all the innovators out there. I simply don't have time to DIY as much as I would like. More importantly I think this discussion is reflective of an atmosphere that allows for creation and innovation. It simply makes me feel good to know that we at least acknowledge ethics, boundaries, and shades of gray and fuzzy big lines.

Critical thinking is refreshing in what seems to me to be a time of rhetoric and alienation.

[Syb]

Critical thinking is refreshing in what seems to me to be a time of rhetoric and alienation.

This is one of the best things I've read today.

[dingo]

Love my 2q & Zq pole mod on my arrowhead equip. Toxaway tarp great mod and great tarp

[DemostiX]

An example. Years ago the SnugFit designed by Youngblood and manufactured by Speer introduced the Big Idea of a differentially cut underquilt. Most UQs now sold have some embodiment of that idea, and variations on how to achieve that appear to me from what I've read to be pretty small among the cottage industry that makes them. So I'd take some umbrage at someone coming along and making grandiose claims about their amazing differential cut ideas without giving credit where credit is due. .

Too much, too much credit here. We can admire that someone among amateurs comes up with the pattern for sewing some well "differentially cut" down sleeves. There's everything there I can't do, but nothing much to someone who has advanced from seamstressing --apologies for the gender non-neutrality -- to real tailoring. There are tens of thousands of tailors in the world, however many fewer in a world of off-the-shelf and off-the-rack. But, there's nothing new about tailoring to drape or fit a contour. You wouldn't buy a lined and padded jacket lacking differential cuts.

Now, much might be made of differential UQs because of leadership by JRB in hammock outfitting. Recent to this, I think my impression is correct that JRB down has been all about multi-adaptive garments for the hammock, decided untailored. The snivelers are examples of that par excellence, but the inclusion of slits and closures for clever adaptation of a quilt is not even tailoring. I'm sure the Jacks don't care, nor do any of their customers that there may not even be a right side to the sniveler. Numerous other quilts in their line are also not differentially sewn, top or bottom use being largely a matter of length. So, against that tradition of just a few years, tailoring seems innovative.

Finally much as I admire the new AHE tarp, and much as I wonder that it is pitched exclusively to hammock users, that wonderment comes out of naivitee. You only have to look at the diversity of tent designs and executions for ground-campers and casual picnickers too that has been going on for decades. If bending poles against stretched fabric was a new innovation, the Clark NX models would be falsely credited and admired for its hoops. Nothing new and innovative there, either, once you've seen tents both ordinary and extraordinary.