Irritated with Missouri State Parks, need help!

[Owl]

From my understanding, a lot of these laws go way back because of folks nailing clotheslines to tree, putting screw hooks into trees for the old backyard hammocks, etc.

I believe Rev, through education in the new greener ways, was able to get the ok in his state parks in his area as long as tree huggers and the such are used.

As for an organization like the NRA but for hammocks, sign me up. Cannibal can be member #1, I'll be happy with #2.

This is on the money. In fact, after getting a friend of mine hooked on hammocking, he let me know that Florida does not allow hanging in their state parks. I showed him Rev's thread...and he contacted someone in the Florida parks commission and discussed exactly this with him, even citing a lot of the good points from Rev's thread.

Florida isn't going to revise their rules against hanging from trees...but his call spurred them to renew a program that they've started with putting posts in campsites at their parks intended for hanging camping hammocks from.

Ebs...I'd like to suggest that you send a PM to a couple of folks here that might be able to assist you in providing a presentation (or even demonstration) to the parks administratioin and see if we can do anything to assist in either modifying the rules or garnering some kind of built in "stand" for hammocks as has been done in other states. Drop me a PM, and I'll try to assist you with this as well.

[perdidochas]

Everytime this topic comes up I contemplate how such laws, regulations, or guidelines come to be; and how they get changed. My only conclusion is politics and how does the political machine in our country work? Lobbyists! Generally the group with the loudest vioce gets heard.

Now, there are threads around here with discusions about how to approach park managers & such and sway their opinion, primarily through education. However, the creation of a non-profit national organization could develop enough clout to entirely have the "law" amended to include an exception for hammocks hung with webbing (a.k.a tree huggers) on a state by state basis. That is how laws are changed, made, & eradicated in our country.

This is the first time I made mention of such an organization in a public forum. I hope that oneday HF will be able to expand into that direction.

I don't think these regulations are politics or even law. I think they are bureaucracy gone wild. The intentions are good, the details not so good.

I think we just need to figure out how to win the bureaucrats over, not do it politically.

[SanAntoneTY]

I haer ya man sometimes in texas we cant even have fires cause of the burn ban

[SmokeBait]

I've not tried fighting Jefferson City, but there are some great places to hang in Missouri other than state parks, right BurningCedar? The state parks are often packed with RV's and noisy people. Try taking a hike in some of the conservation areas or National forests. Close to you would be the Lewis and Clark trail and the Lost Valley trail both in St. Charles county. You hike a mile or two back into the woods and nobody will even know you are there. Do it all the time...

[SilvrSurfr]

I would suggest that you call back and get a chapter and verse citation to the actual rules(s). Then read the rules and see if you are being given good information. If the rules are not as you were told before, you will know the rules when and if challenged in the park. If a prohibition actually exists, you have a starting point for a dialogue.

Question authority! Bureaucracies (government and corporate) sometimes get bogged down in stupidity. My son had chapped lips and I sent him to school with some Carmex lip balm.

The school nurse confiscated it - she said it was against state law for children to have chapstick or lip balm in school. "What law?" I asked her. She referred me to the principal, who referred me to the superintendent, who said the same stupid thing. "What law are you referring to? Can I see it in writing?" I asked. I didn't think such a law existed.

I was finally told that the state Department of Education had established
the rule and they gave me a phone number for the Doctor who supposedly authored this rule. When I asked him if he had outlawed chapstick and lip balm in NJ schools, he said that was the stupidest thing he had ever heard. Why would anyone outlaw chapstick and lip balm?

I asked him for a letter stating that children are allowed to use chapstick and lip balm, that there is no state law or rule against it, which he sent me and copied the school nurse, the principal and superintendent. My son was able to use his lip balm the rest of the year with no problem.

The next year he went to a new school with a new principal, superintendent and school nurse. They confiscated my son's lip balm and said it was against NJ state law for students to have chap stick or lip balm. Deja vu all over again.

No law, no policy, not even a memo to suggest that lip balm and chapstick was outlawed, and yet - this myth was rampant among state educators.

I googled State of Mo. State Parks Rules and Regulations. These are not laws, but regulations (which hold the same weight as law but are easier to change). Title 10, Division 90, governs the administration of state parks, which you can find at:

http://www.sos.mo.gov/adrules/csr/cu...sr/10c90-2.pdf

The good news is that Hammocks are not specifically prohibited. In fact, the only things specifically prohibited are

* Lanterns shall not be hung on trees or shrubs.
* Horses, donkeys and mules shall not be tied off to trees without the permission of the facility manager.
* No watercraft shall be tied to trees.

Now here's the rule they may be interpreting as anti-hammock:

10 CSR 90-2.040 (4) Park Property

Trees, Shrubbery, Lawns, etc. No person
shall cut, carve or injure the bark, or break
off limbs or branches or mutilate in any way,

Since there is no blanket prohibition of hammocks - then "no hammocks" is an interpretation of the regulation. The person you called is the one who interpreted it that way. I have read other people say they have no problems hanging in Missouri State Parks, so you just found one person who interpreted the regulation that way. It could be that other park managers see things that way as well - luck of the draw, I guess.

Missouri law Chapter 258, Outdoor Recreation, Section 258.010 created the State Interagency Council for Outdoor Recreation. The University of Missouri is part of this council. I would suggest starting with the university and write to the council on the low impact and Leave No Trace aspects of hammock camping.

I doubt anyone would ever write a law or regulation prohibiting lip balm in schools, or hammocks in state parks. It would make that person feel stupid even putting it on paper. Make these fools put in writing that you are prohibited from hanging a hammock in a Missouri State Park. In all likelihood they will not commit it to paper, but if you can get them to discriminate based on interpretation of a regulation, then you have something in your hand to fight.

If you can't get it in writing, then you can quote the person, get his title, and start sending letters to the council, state administrators and legislators. Don't let the man keep you down!

[nothermark]

From my understanding, a lot of these laws go way back because of folks nailing clotheslines to tree, putting screw hooks into trees for the old backyard hammocks, etc.

I believe Rev, through education in the new greener ways, was able to get the ok in his state parks in his area as long as tree huggers and the such are used.

As for an organization like the NRA but for hammocks, sign me up. Cannibal can be member #1, I'll be happy with #2.

look at turn of the last century camping books and you will see where a lot of the laws come from. OTOH I have hung a lot of tarps from trees in the Adirondack parks. Come one up! ;-)

[BullFrog]

The fire ban is certainly annoying, but I abide by it. The hammock rule, however... I always camp in the backcountry, so I've never been hassled. Cannibal is right though, the national parks and forests (Shawnee in IL, Mark Twain or Ozark in MO) have much more freedom. I've hung in a Shawnee campground and got no trouble.

I would also be quick to support any "legislator education" if someone cooks it up.

[ebs675]

Thanks All. Per the advice, I escalated this and was advised by someone at the Missouri DNR that hammocks are in-fact allowed at most Missouri campgrounds, but that it can vary due to logistics. They said they ask for 2" straps to be used, so that clues me in that some thought has gone into it on their part. So that is good news.

Thanks all for the tips.

[MAD777]

Thanks All. Per the advice, I escalated this and was advised by someone at the Missouri DNR that hammocks are in-fact allowed at most Missouri campgrounds, but that it can vary due to logistics. They said they ask for 2" straps to be used, so that clues me in that some thought has gone into it on their part. So that is good news.

Thanks all for the tips.

That's good news!
Unfortunately in Florida, we are dealing with an actual law written by the legislature. We should make them sleep in tents on stony ground!

[tikhon]

I actually found out what they don't like about hanging stuff from trees here in Ohio. Not all the parks but they are concerned with damage to the trees from nails, hooks, rope or narrow line. It can debark the tree and kill it.
I have had pretty good success with negotiating up front with the rangers & park managers usually with a demo of the straps & Dutch clips instead of rope or slings. I even have set of straps for ridge lines. I was thinking of making a "Super Strap" out of 2-3" webbing to use on the tree just to further the negotiations with the park staffers ...... but haven't got that far ... yet
And No is still an acceptable answer. Just go to another park :-)