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  1. #1
    Senior Member turnerminator's Avatar
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    Speedy tie outs; Cleats,Flyz and captive Ti stakes

    Since being a member on here, all the usual stuff has made its way onto my tarp and hammock and it works great. Dutch clips, dutch buckles, dutch hooks, tarp flys, ridgline hooks, nacrabiners and Clamcleat line locs.

    I've been happy with everything but the clamcleats on the tie-outs. If I'm pitching close to the ground, they need undoing and retieing. They take longer to sort than anything else on my setup.

    I like to keep them tied on, but after a recent trip in the wind, they tangled several times and I lost 2 ti pegs to the heather after standing on them.

    To me, an ideal system would be having the lines permanently attached to the stakes so losing stakes will no longer ever happen. An ideal system would also be quick attach/release to the tarp end of the tie-outs, light weight, easily adjustable, non snagging and secure. Also, it must work with thin cord.

    After some noggin scratching, 2 candidates were apparent to do this; Dutch's fantastic tarp flyz and Clamcleats cl274 micro

    So, I bought some cleats and started playing. (FYI, the nylon cleats are 2.6g each)

    Today, I rigged my 3.2x3m diy tarp up with 9 x Cl274's and 1 tarp flyz( I only have one left ). I used some new flouro yellow English Braids hollow dyneema in 1mm size(look like 1.5 to me at least) to tie to the stakes with a Snell knot.

    Pics;


    My tarp and red stake bag;


    Bundle of 10 Mountainfitter ti stakes and dyneema braid. 6 x 6ft center tie outs and 4 x 8ft corners.

    My tarp without tangling, dangling lines. (yes I know I can hank them but I never seem to manage it and just stuff them in)

    The cleats



    The Tarp flyz

    Captive ti stakes

    I can see you! No more searching for titanium goodies


    The cleats were attached through the rear hole only by a piece of dyneema knotted to form a toggle. They would be better attached with 2 alu countersink pop rivets onto a piece of narrow webbing. I did'nt go to that trouble as I'm just testing it.

    To tie out the tarp is simple with these; put stake in ground, hold cleat with one hand, hold line with other, tension, place braid in slot, let go.

    To release; pull loose end of line , whilt holding the cleat-it pulls straight out.


    Initial conclusion;

    The cleats are as quick to hold the braid as i was hoping, its impossible to attach them any quicker without velcro or magnets. If this holds up in testing, it'll be the quickest way ever to attach tie outs.

    They grab the line and stay grabbed, but will slip with 20kg of force. Thicker line holds much better, I couldnt get amsteel to slip at all.
    The Flyz are obviously much more secure. They are also an improvement on the linelocs, but still no where near as quick and easy to attach, or release.

    With thin cord, the Flyz win at present unless theres not much wind. With thicker line, the cleats win hands down. I think the thin cord will quickly wear the groove out, especially if it slips in strong wind.
    I think theres mileage in this method and they are all staying on for more rigourous testing later this week when I go camping in the arctic. I'm going to use 4mm nylon line to be safe and if they fail, I can just revert to my old method of evenk knotting them on to the loops.

    Apologies if I'm covering old ground but I haven't seen these cleats used like this before and it seems to solve some common problems and speed things up as well.

    Any ideas, comments, suggestions and criticisms are welcome as usual

    Maybe I'm missing something obvious and I'm trying to solve a problem that could be more easily overcome. There might be a product already being sold that I've missed. I've perused the Clamcleat website and all the other more suitable designs are for thicker lines. The aluminium toothed cleats with side entry are too heavy IMO at 7g each, but will not wear out. They are also made for line that is too fat.

    Dutch, if you read this, maybe a modified or redesigned tarp fly would do even better in this application?


    Thanks for looking

    Pete.
    Last edited by turnerminator; 03-06-2012 at 13:18.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Lost_Biker's Avatar
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    Did you use regular key rings? If so that's a great idea along with the cords attached to the stakes. Thanks for the great pictures and post!
    I got in a fight one time with a really big guy, and he said, "I'm going to mop the floor with your face." I said, "You'll be sorry." He said, "Oh, yeah? Why?" I said, "Well, you won't be able to get into the corners very well."


    Underquilts.com

  3. #3
    Senior Member turnerminator's Avatar
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    Thanks LB

    Yup, theyre normal split Key rings . They're plenty strong enough and tested to 50mph winds so far.

  4. #4

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    Nice idea. I like it.

    The one thing I see is the cleats are made to be used with a fair lead to position the line ahead of the cleat. If you have trouble popping out of the cleat I would try a small loop of cord through the hole opposite where you connect to the tarp. You want it just big enough to let the line slide through. It may change how you do the release but it should still work. Just looking since you asked. ;-)

  5. #5
    Senior Member turnerminator's Avatar
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    Thanks Nother.

    I'd looked at the fairlead cleats and decided in my limited wisdom to go with these instead for the reduced weight. They dont seem to want to pull out when I wiggle them, but wind and wear has a habit of finding those weaknesses. Time will tell.

    Maybe the front hole could have a slot cut in it at the 3 o clock position to act as a fairlead? That could sure things up, lose the risk of coming loose and provide more bite on the line?

  6. #6
    Senior Member TeeDee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnerminator View Post
    .......

    They grab the line and stay grabbed, but will slip with 20kg of force. Thicker line holds much better, I couldnt get amsteel to slip at all.
    The Flyz are obviously much more secure. ......

    With thin cord, the Flyz win at present unless theres not much wind. With thicker line, the cleats win hands down. I think the thin cord will quickly wear the groove out, especially if it slips in strong wind.................

    Pete.
    A few years back I tested the Hitchcraft rope cleat. Much heavier and larger. It was and is excellent for many uses such as truck tie downs, etc. Quick easy one hand operation.

    Was trying to use it for the hammock suspension using 3 mm dyneema coated line and the biggest problem was the small line. This was before Dynaglide, when 3 mm rope was considered small!! The small line had a tendency to occasionally slip through the cleat and essentially ream it out rendering the cleat useless. The Hitchcraft guy confirmed this with his own testing. The Hitchcraft cleat worked great on line a little larger than the 3 mm.

    So, yes, the clamcleat will probably suffer the same fate if the thin line slips.

    I personally like the Nite Ize AL small figure 9, for the tarp ridge line. It also gives me a 3:1 mechanical advantage in pulling the ridge line tight. Rated at 50 lbs but can undoubtedly withstand considerably more, probably at least 4 times as much if the testing done by HF members is any indication. Slippage is no problem even with 1.7 mm Lash-It. Easy operation to tension, easy one handed operation to release. At 4 grams each, they are heavier than the 2.6 grams for the clamcleat, but I think the AL material is more durable also. I also like them because I use the same Figure 9 to tension the 3 mm dyneema ropes securing my pack to my Dixon RollerPack. Since the uses are mutually exclusive, there isn't any conflict in usage.

    For tarp guy lines I prefer to just use a Prussic. At 1 gram it is pretty hard to beat weight wise. The Prussic stays on the line and cannot be lost. Easy adjustment to tension and release. To attach to the tarp tie out, I simply shove the prussic loop through the tie out loop and shove a small twig through the prussic loop or vice versa. The twig has zero carry weight. Hard to beat that. Opie tested the Zing-It Prussic used on the Dyneema and found that it will slip at a reasonably high force that is still low enough that it will slip before the tarp material tears. The force required for slippage is, of course, dependent on the number of wraps used.

    A suggestion on attaching your guy lines to the stakes. Use Super Glue. One or 2 wraps (or maybe a clove hitch or 2 half hitches) and coat with a few drops of super glue. Moisture is no problem and can be removed using acetone if you need to. Lighter than the multiple wraps used in the pictures.
    Those who sacrifice freedom for safety, have neither.

    Do not dig your grave with your teeth. (Unknown)

  7. #7
    MAD777's Avatar
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    Nice idea! I must admit that I have left some titanium in the field. Hopefully another hiker has made good use of it.
    Mike
    "Life is a Project!"

  8. #8
    Senior Member turnerminator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TeeDee View Post
    A few years back I tested the Hitchcraft rope cleat. Much heavier and larger. It was and is excellent for many uses such as truck tie downs, etc. Quick easy one hand operation.

    Was trying to use it for the hammock suspension using 3 mm dyneema coated line and the biggest problem was the small line. This was before Dynaglide, when 3 mm rope was considered small!! The small line had a tendency to occasionally slip through the cleat and essentially ream it out rendering the cleat useless. The Hitchcraft guy confirmed this with his own testing. The Hitchcraft cleat worked great on line a little larger than the 3 mm.

    So, yes, the clamcleat will probably suffer the same fate if the thin line slips.

    I personally like the Nite Ize AL small figure 9, for the tarp ridge line. It also gives me a 3:1 mechanical advantage in pulling the ridge line tight. Rated at 50 lbs but can undoubtedly withstand considerably more, probably at least 4 times as much if the testing done by HF members is any indication. Slippage is no problem even with 1.7 mm Lash-It. Easy operation to tension, easy one handed operation to release. At 4 grams each, they are heavier than the 2.6 grams for the clamcleat, but I think the AL material is more durable also. I also like them because I use the same Figure 9 to tension the 3 mm dyneema ropes securing my pack to my Dixon RollerPack. Since the uses are mutually exclusive, there isn't any conflict in usage.

    For tarp guy lines I prefer to just use a Prussic. At 1 gram it is pretty hard to beat weight wise. The Prussic stays on the line and cannot be lost. Easy adjustment to tension and release. To attach to the tarp tie out, I simply shove the prussic loop through the tie out loop and shove a small twig through the prussic loop or vice versa. The twig has zero carry weight. Hard to beat that. Opie tested the Zing-It Prussic used on the Dyneema and found that it will slip at a reasonably high force that is still low enough that it will slip before the tarp material tears. The force required for slippage is, of course, dependent on the number of wraps used.

    A suggestion on attaching your guy lines to the stakes. Use Super Glue. One or 2 wraps (or maybe a clove hitch or 2 half hitches) and coat with a few drops of super glue. Moisture is no problem and can be removed using acetone if you need to. Lighter than the multiple wraps used in the pictures.
    Thanks Teedee, some great info there. Superglue is a winning tip, that will save some bulk.

    Youve confirmed my suspicions about the line slipping, I'll keep them on for the time being and use them with thicker tie out line until I come back.

    Re. figure 9's, I havent got on well with them. Both have bent very easily, folding the jaws closed. They lasted 2 weeks in use. The Flyz are doing much better for me.

    The prussic is a good idea and not one ive used on tie-outs yet. I'm concerned about the prussic knot stopping a tangle falling out easily though.
    Do you push the prussic right down the tie-out for storage?

    What this needs to work properly by the sounds of it is an aluminium or titanium body, narrower and longer groove, with a small side entry fairlead.



    Quote Originally Posted by MAD777 View Post
    Nice idea! I must admit that I have left some titanium in the field. Hopefully another hiker has made good use of it.
    Hehe. Annoying isn't it?
    Its actually not financially viable to spend all this time and effort trying to keep hold of the little swines, I'd be better off just buying more stakes and donating titanium back to the earth and other campers!

  9. #9
    Senior Member TeeDee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnerminator View Post
    .............

    The prussic is a good idea and not one ive used on tie-outs yet. I'm concerned about the prussic knot stopping a tangle falling out easily though.
    Do you push the prussic right down the tie-out for storage?................
    I believe it was Opie who showed me about the Prussics on the guy lines. Used them ever since. Easy and light and easily replaced in the field if needed. I just leave the Prussic where it was and move as needed on the next setup and find that I don't have to move it very far. I use the figure 8 winding technique around my thumb and little finger and have no problem with tangles using 1.75 mm Lash-It.

    Thought some more about permanently attaching the guy lines to the stake - I would suggest a full turn and half hitch, pull tight and a soak with a few drops of super glue. The guy line and stake will not be separated then.
    Those who sacrifice freedom for safety, have neither.

    Do not dig your grave with your teeth. (Unknown)

  10. #10
    Senior Member turnerminator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TeeDee View Post
    I believe it was Opie who showed me about the Prussics on the guy lines. Used them ever since. Easy and light and easily replaced in the field if needed. I just leave the Prussic where it was and move as needed on the next setup and find that I don't have to move it very far. I use the figure 8 winding technique around my thumb and little finger and have no problem with tangles using 1.75 mm Lash-It.

    Thought some more about permanently attaching the guy lines to the stake - I would suggest a full turn and half hitch, pull tight and a soak with a few drops of super glue. The guy line and stake will not be separated then.
    The prussics have to be tried now, it sounds better and better.

    I'm not familiar with that knot but it sounds much like a clove hitch

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