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  1. #11
    canoebie's Avatar
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    Sorry to hear about your tailbone Coffee. I know when it happened to my friend the pain was awful. I wish you many safe and enjoyable travels, no matter what the mode!!

    David
    Revolution is about the need to re-evolve political, economic and social justice and power back into the hands of the people, preferably through legislation and policies that make human sense. That's what revolution is about. Revolution is not about shootouts.

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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by canoebie View Post
    Sorry to hear about your tailbone Coffee. I know when it happened to my friend the pain was awful. I wish you many safe and enjoyable travels, no matter what the mode!!

    David
    Good luck to you too. I would join you guys on the midwest paddle trip, but I took a job out of town and am leaving the midwest soon.
    Is that too much to ask? Girls with frikkin' lasers on their heads?
    The hanger formly known as "hammock engineer".

  3. #13
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    Since I was the one who first brought up a "comparison" between hiking and other activities, it was not my intent to say one was more or less dangerous than another. Simply that there are dangers everywhere. My experience with the "it's so dangerous" crowd is they focus on one type of activity to the exclusion of others. That's all I was suggesting. To live a risk-free life is impossible. Or at least I wouldn't find the concept being much of a life worth living. To the doom saying families.... lighten up. Statistically the vast majority of accidents happen within 25 miles of home. So.... makes you wonder... if that is true... why don't more people move... to reduce the odds.... nevermind.....
    I may be slow... But I sure am gimpy.

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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by canoebie View Post
    I do explain to folks I take on canoe trips that in reality the drive to the river is most likely more dangerous than the paddle on the river.
    canoebie,

    I would like to think you are correct, but the academic community has, in the teaching of risk assessment, been touting canoeing as a rather dangerous activity. See, for example, http://www.psych.upenn.edu/~baron/900/risk.htm, where the increased chance of death by accident per year of 0.000001 (a one-in-a-million or 0.0001% increase) is listed as traveling 150 miles in a car or 6 minutes in a canoe. For comparability, this is about 150 minutes in a car or 0.3 miles in a canoe. Depending on how you want to measure it, canoeing is 500 times more risky than a car on a per-mile basis or 25 times more risky on a per-minute basis.

    Your safety oriented approach to group canoeing is commendable, and I'm sure it reduces the risks from level cited in the literature, but my guess is that canoeing will almost always be riskier than driving.

    FarStar
    Last edited by FarStar; 06-30-2008 at 02:28. Reason: Formatting.

  5. #15
    GrizzlyAdams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coffee View Post
    Good luck to you too. I would join you guys on the midwest paddle trip, but I took a job out of town and am leaving the midwest soon.
    Coffee--you talked about maybe going to Denver before...where's the job? Hope we can connect again, wherever.

    Grizz

  6. #16
    canoebie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FarStar View Post
    canoebie,

    I would like to think you are correct, but the academic community has, in the teaching of risk assessment, been touting canoeing as a rather dangerous activity. See, for example, http://www.psych.upenn.edu/~baron/900/risk.htm, where the increased chance of death by accident per year of 0.000001 (a one-in-a-million or 0.0001% increase) is listed as traveling 150 miles in a car or 6 minutes in a canoe. For comparability, this is about 150 minutes in a car or 0.3 miles in a canoe. Depending on how you want to measure it, canoeing is 500 times more risky than a car on a per-mile basis or 25 times more risky on a per-minute basis.

    Your safety oriented approach to group canoeing is commendable, and I'm sure it reduces the risks from level cited in the literature, but my guess is that canoeing will almost always be riskier than driving.

    FarStar
    Interesting! I am sure there are multiple variables that influence the risk. The river I paddle on is rated class I, folks are given instruction, etc. etc. I do know that I have seen people do really stupid things in a canoe that most likely they would not do in a car. Good example being alcohol use. Folks often abuse alcohol in a canoe that would not drive under the influence.

    In addition, I think folks often "paddle beyond their means" meaning, beyond their skill level.

    Perhaps I should qualify and say, I believe with some accuracy that when people paddle with me, their risk is less than driving to the river on the interstate.

    I am always a little skeptical of statistics because there are so many intervening variables that can influence them. Did you know that 90% of the time 50% of statistical analysis can be proven wrong? (smile)

    Thanks for the feedback.

    David
    Revolution is about the need to re-evolve political, economic and social justice and power back into the hands of the people, preferably through legislation and policies that make human sense. That's what revolution is about. Revolution is not about shootouts.

    Bobby Seale


    http://www.riverjourneys.org

  7. #17
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    I agree with Canoebie. I believe that life is inherently risky. We either manage the risks, or we die the slow death, while waiting to die. I am NOT an adrenaline junkie in any way, shape, or form, but I scuba dive, motorcycle, and enjoy the outdoors camping, hunting, and hiking. I, for one, do assess risks, and decide which ones are acceptable. I guess, in some form, I am a fatalist, believing that if it's my time, the "bullet" will go around a corner. That does not mean that I do not reduce risk by being observant, prudent, and careful.

    John

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    One book I read that I highly recommend is "Deep Survival". It does not go into physical servival methods, making shelter or fire. It talks about why people find themselves in those situations and mentally what happens to them. One interesting point it keeps driving home is a more experienced person is more likely to get hurt than a new person. The reason being is the experienced person gets complacent. They create the mental map in there head that it will always turn out the way it did before. Or I have done this trail/river/mountain/whatever before and countless ones harder, this one will be no problem.

    I think this book should be on everyone's reading list. One of the few ones I want to reread to make sure it all sinks in.
    Is that too much to ask? Girls with frikkin' lasers on their heads?
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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrizzlyAdams View Post
    Coffee--you talked about maybe going to Denver before...where's the job? Hope we can connect again, wherever.

    Grizz
    I was trying Denver, Portland, and Seattle. I got offered a job in New Orleans I can't pass up. I'll only be there about half the time, it involves a lot of travel. But the travel is to good locations. I have a friend that does a similar job and always ends up in the middle of nowhere Nebraska or somewhere like that.

    Looks like I will be a southern boy for awhile. Not much hiking down there, but an excuse for me to finally buy a kayak.
    Is that too much to ask? Girls with frikkin' lasers on their heads?
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  10. #20
    canoebie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coffee View Post
    One book I read that I highly recommend is "Deep Survival". It does not go into physical servival methods, making shelter or fire. It talks about why people find themselves in those situations and mentally what happens to them. One interesting point it keeps driving home is a more experienced person is more likely to get hurt than a new person. The reason being is the experienced person gets complacent. They create the mental map in there head that it will always turn out the way it did before. Or I have done this trail/river/mountain/whatever before and countless ones harder, this one will be no problem.

    I think this book should be on everyone's reading list. One of the few ones I want to reread to make sure it all sinks in.
    It is so true that we can become complacent!! I have more problems with those who are experienced in terms of getting them to follow safe practices than those that are new. In addition, men are much more difficult to convince of risk than women. Women listen better, and respect the river, fire, etc. more than men. In general, they are also more cooperative.

    Too often, I get folks that think they are the last of the "great white mountain men" and they drink untreated water, hike alone without telling others they are leaving, go barefoot around camp, swim barefoot, on and on the list goes. I show a newbie a piece of glass I pick up somewhere, or a submerged rock that is not visible and they are convinced.

    Your observation is very accurate based on my experience and a caution to all of us to be aware and ever vigilant.

    David
    Revolution is about the need to re-evolve political, economic and social justice and power back into the hands of the people, preferably through legislation and policies that make human sense. That's what revolution is about. Revolution is not about shootouts.

    Bobby Seale


    http://www.riverjourneys.org

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