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  1. #71
    MML's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammock hunter View Post
    ... when it gets wet, it's the worst insulation.

    just curious to what type of sleeping "bag" insulation you are using and why?

    thanks
    hg
    Actually, if you just take a good outer fabric for a home made sleeping quilt and stuff it with live geese, when they get wet, they'll just flap their wings a lot and it'll be dry in no time.
    MML--The Man, The Myth, and the Legend

    "I am the eagle, I live in high country, in rocky cathedrals that reach to the sky;
    I am the hawk and there's blood on my feathers, but time is still turning they soon will be dry;
    All those who see me, and all who believe in me, share in the freedom I feel when I fly.
    John Denver--1943-1997

  2. #72
    Prefers life at 12 MPH. FLRider's Avatar
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    Thank you, HappyHiker and BillyBob58 for those real-world examinations of specific gear. I agree; lab conditions rarely obtain outside the lab.

    I'll just keep my contribution short by noting that below freezing, drafts (and, by extension, humidity control) become a huge problem compared to warmer temperatures. Once you reach freezing, even small drafts will cool the moisture on your skin much more quickly than above that temperature. Hence the disproportionate perceived warmth of hammock socks and overcovers compared to their actual insulative value.

    I'd go so far as to argue that, once you reach the sub-30 regime of temperatures, draft control becomes as big, if not a bigger, issue as straight insulation--at least, it has been for me. Which applies regardless of whether the insulation is down or polyester/polyethylene/olefin.

  3. #73
    Senior Member HappyHiker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillyBob58 View Post
    Thanks for the detailed response, HappyHiker!

    Here's my take on your proposed UQ:


    OK, good info. I love these types of theoretical discussions(with some real world thrown in). And your figures seem correct to me, but I see that works out to more loft than I was guessing at. And the reason I was guessing at .5-.75" was because of the specs on the WB Yeti 3 season. Brandon rates that at (OK I see my mistake right here) 1.5" BAFFLE HEIGHT. I was thinking that was 1.5" LOFT, but it is baffle height. So loft would be a bit ( maybe even a good bit) more, and I don't know how much.
    Heh - I'm a sucker for theoretical discussions, but theory rarely holds up in the real world so I have to try and relate it to something solid (probably why I would have made a lousy quantum physicyst )

    Actually, the 48F there is probably exactly per my real world testing. I am not stopping to find the thread, but it was somewhere mid to hi 40s with high humidity, right next to a lake. I remember we all agreed it felt like a really cold hi 40s when we were cooking breakfast that morning. But, I'm also thinking I had nothing else for base layers, just cotton jeans/tee shirt. Not even a hat until near dawn, when I remembered I had one in the WBBB shelf, and put it on. A 40-50F semi-rectangular bag as quilt( 30 year old synthetic liner bag).
    Great to know that calc is roughly accurate - I haven't tried any synth for a long time.

    Not quite following here, can you say some more about this? 31.42? From above, I see you have about a ~ 40F rating for down ( 70- 29.52= 40.48) and a 48.58 for the CS( .86*2.5*10= 21.5. )

    29.52/21.5= 1.37 So not a big dif, but is it 31.42 or 29.52?
    70 -38.58(rating from the down method)= 31.42 (degrees from 70)
    70 - 48.58(rating from the CS/clo method)=21.42 (degrees from 70)

    As you say, however you choose to look at it, a small difference.

    No matter, it looks like the 850 down will be between 1.3 and 1.4 times as warm as an equal weight of CS, so that is enough to be worth considering. But not near as much as I would have thought, considering it is 850 down. I used your calculation for 750 down, and the dif was only ~ 1.2.

    Though those figures for the down don't quite match extrapolating from the 3 season Yeti rating with 6.5 oz of down, which would give more like a 50F rating for 2.5 oz of down. But I will assume that your method is more accurate and that Brandon's rating is a bit conservative, which I find easy to believe. And of course, in both cases, those ratings are with both being bone dry. IMO, let some moisture enter the mix, and the warmth to weight advantage might actually switch to the CS.
    Do you have the dimensions of the Yeti?

    It's really apples to oranges (my comparison) IMO, and likely off to some degree. Synthetics use a weight of material to ascertain the warmth of that given material, where down is commonly rated by loft (and density to some degree). I was just attempting to compare a given area with an equivalent weight of down vs. CS to supply food for thought in the theoretical discussion. Thats where knowing what the actual clo value for a given loft of down would be great to have. The earlier stated clo value of down gives no indication whether that oz of down is 1/4" or 2" thick given the area would be different for each value. If it is truly just a weight to area comparison, then my last example which gave down (800 fp) almost a 2x advantage would display a huge difference between down and synth. (I hope that makes sense ).

    In the end, a comparison of the weight of bags given the same EN rating (with roughly the same dimensions) would probably be a far more accurate indicator of weight to warmth. But I can't resist playing



    I'm also going with your 1st figures, resulting in a 40F rating starting from 70. Why? Because until someone tells me dif, it is hard for me to think that folks are really getting more than about mid 40s out of torso UQs with only 2.5 oz of down. Unless maybe 900 down?

    Thanks for the work, that was fun!
    Thank YOU for working through that jumble!
    Experience is the worst teacher - it presents the exam first and the lesson later. - Unknown

  4. #74
    Member I Splice's Avatar
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    I use down. It's lighter for warmth, takes less pack space for warmth and lasts longer.

    I saw an Andrew Skurka talk last month. He says that down gets wet and looses loft when you're in high humidity weather, not from accidents.

    I've had my down Peapod in very bad conditions twice.

    Once the condensation was so bad that when I got up to try to adjust my tarp, I couldn't see because so much water was condensing in my face and running in my eyes. Not rain, condensation. There was water condensing on the inside of my tarp and on my Peapod. Water was running through the Velcro closure, dripping on me, running off of me, onto my hammock and dripping on the inside of the Peapod for several hours.

    I thought that I was going to have to abort the trip because my sleeping insulation would be soaked. I was wrong. In the morning light, it didn't look too bad, so I decided to continue. At lunch, I spread my Peapod out in the sun to dry but it wasn't necessary.

    Another time, I was camped in a high wind during a storm. I'd pitched my tarp too high above above my hammock and rain was blowing under the tarp and onto my Peapod. It was pushing me around too. My tent stakes were pulling out and it was hard to hold the tarp in the wind. I eventually lost a tent stake while fiddling with the tarp and decided to retreat to the car where the rest of my tent stakes were. So, I wrapped my soaked tarp around my wet Peapod, tied it with my guylines. In the morning, I stuffed the whole wet mess into a stuff sack.

    When I got home, probably 12 hours later, there was a minor loss of loft. The Peapod wasn't quite as poofy as it usually is.

    Then there was the time that I was in an incredible condensation situation like the first story. This time I was expecting it, so I pitched my tarp with the foot very low, upwind, and as closed as I could make it.

    During the night, I woke up with trouble breathing. My tarp had sagged, and there was so much condensation on my tarp and my Peapod, that the tarp had sealed to the Peapod from the surface tension! The Peapod was fine.

    If you've ever tried to wash a down bag, you know that it's not easy to get the down completely wet.

  5. #75
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by I Splice View Post
    Not rain, condensation. There was water condensing on the inside of my tarp and on my Peapod. Water was running through the Velcro closure, dripping on me, running off of me, onto my hammock and dripping on the inside of the Peapod for several hours.

    I thought that I was going to have to abort the trip because my sleeping insulation would be soaked. I was wrong. In the morning light, it didn't look too bad, so I decided to continue. At lunch, I spread my Peapod out in the sun to dry but it wasn't necessary...................................
    During the night, I woke up with trouble breathing. My tarp had sagged, and there was so much condensation on my tarp and my Peapod, that the tarp had sealed to the Peapod from the surface tension! The Peapod was fine.

    If you've ever tried to wash a down bag, you know that it's not easy to get the down completely wet.
    I have also had a couple of near disasters like that with my PeaPod, and all turned out fine. The outer fabric kept the external moisture- or most of it- outside of the down. I have really come to think that- based on my friends Pea Pod and/or down TQ losing significant loss on two different trips of ~ 5 days each - that problems are more likely to occur ( if at all ) from a persons body misture- whether from sweat or insensible perspiration (vapor) condensing inside the DWR shells. Vapor will go right through the breathable inner shell on it's way to the outside. And if temp/humidity conditions are just right, it will condense inside the down. And if that happens over enough days with no sunshine, there might be trouble. As with my friend's Pea Pod. ( of course, as a vapor barrier fan, I don't much worry about that either! And I have not had those problems ) But I think, especially for us hangers who are above ground, this is a bigger threat than external moisture.

    Also, I think the other current thread about some folks having severe problems from fog is worth reading.


    I also want to repeat this question in case I have missed the answer:
    What do Y'all think? How low do you think you could go with a torso or Yeti style UQ with 2.5 oz of 850 down in it?
    I am asking this because I have done mid to hi 40s with 2.5 oz of Climashield in my torso UQ, wearing only cotton tee shirt, and was adequately warm. So does any one use a torso UQ with only ~ 2.5 oz of down fill for temps colder than that? If someone is doing 20 or 30 or even 35 with such an UQ, then that will clearly show a very significant warmth to weight advantage for down.
    For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us....that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
    Romans 8:18,21-22

  6. #76
    Senior Member Rolloff's Avatar
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    Ok. Now that the "balance" part of the discussion has been worked over, and the merits of both touted to a reasonable excess.

    Which one goes in the BOB, and why? You can't have both, and you don't have time to allow the forecast to make the decision for you?

    Will the few ounces you might save allow you to carry more, water? amo? food?

    Will the volume/weight penalty prevent you from carrying sufficient amounts of the above?

    Lots more variables. Can't hardly think of one w/o having to consider others, sometimes nearly everything, in one aspect or another.
    Signature suspended

  7. #77
    Member Apis's Avatar
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    Has anyone considered the vapor barrier option, long used by mountaineers as so forth for decades? I use them and consider them essential for adding [I]practically[I] no bulk insulation. They also keep one's bags drier and cleaner from the inside.

    They are not "clammy" either. I wear woolies inside mine.
    Transportation for Hiram Farm

    Two Wheels Good, Four Wheels Bad

  8. #78
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apis View Post
    Has anyone considered the vapor barrier option, long used by mountaineers as so forth for decades? I use them and consider them essential for adding [I]practically[I] no bulk insulation. They also keep one's bags drier and cleaner from the inside.

    They are not "clammy" either. I wear woolies inside mine.
    Sure, there have been several discussions here on that, I think even a sticky by Youngblood. I am an advocate also when the conditions call for it.
    For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us....that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
    Romans 8:18,21-22

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