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  1. #21
    Senior Member Tobit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomsawyer222 View Post
    I dont see a MT washington quilt on the Jacks site?
    Because it's brand new and they just got back from a road trip to an outdoors show where it was debuted. Pan said in another thread that he'd try and have the website updated by today.

  2. #22
    smithobx's Avatar
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    "Just like a net hammock wouldn't be a wise choice when snow camping" Why, if you use pads and a sufficient bag or quilt , would a net be a bad thing? I don't understand Youngblood.-John
    Last edited by smithobx; 08-18-2008 at 09:05. Reason: content

  3. #23
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Youngblood View Post
    ....... A nice cool breeze is one thing, a blast of frigid air is something else. Just like a net hammock wouldn't be a wise choice when snow camping, a non-breathable hammock wouldn't be a wise choice when camping in 85F weather. Those are extremes and in the middle range where we typically are, there are shades of gray, so to speak. You will run it to situations where one might be preferred over the other and situations where there isn't that much difference. I wish I could snap my fingers and make my hammock switch back-and-forth between being very breathable to being non-breathable. While I am wishing, it would be nice if I could wave my hand and adjust how my tarp is pitched as well.
    In a way, at least with some set ups, you can just snap your fingers, almost. Just add the space blanket or heat sheet etc, which is not terribly inconvenient. Though admittedly not as convenient as snapping your fingers while already laying in your hammock! Whoever invents that will have a lot of business, I bet.

    I have a No net Claytor ( breathable) and a CJH, waterproof bottom as far as I know. Both of course double bottom. I had anticipated that, especially in summer, the CJH would be uncomfortable due to the waterproof bottom. Though I think the No Net indeed feels a little bit cooler, more noticeable in the daytime, it really hasn't been a problem. But I have not had wet back issues when sleeping in the JH with temps in the low 70s most of the night heading for lows in the high 60s. I do get an impression of "stickiness" or something different, but I can never tell that my cotton tee shirt is damp at all. I would rather use my No Net at these temps, but I need the net on the JH.

    Has any one else here had sweaty back syndrome using the Claytor Jungle Hammock(with out pad) in the summer time?
    Last edited by BillyBob58; 08-18-2008 at 17:40.
    For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us....that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
    Romans 8:18,21-22

  4. #24
    Senior Member Just Jeff's Avatar
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    I've had bad experiences using CCF pads nearly every time I've used one. I always sweat with them, even when I'm not overheating. I think one big issue is that, unlike on the ground, in a hammock they wrap around the entire underside of my back, eliminating nearly all of the opportunity to ventilate. The only time I didn't have that problem was at the very low end of the temp range, and I felt chilled nearly the entire night. (Significant increase in altitude probably added to the feeling, though - sea level to ~10k feet in a day.)

    When I use my Exped Downmat 7, I don't get any moisture issues unless I'm actually sweating. Even when I'm on the verge of overheating, or beginning to sweat a little bit, the pad doesn't seem to exacerbate it like CCF does. In a hammock, I don't think it's the tubes b/c they flatten out. I think it's a combination of the material and that the pad doesn't wrap around me as much as a CCF, leaving more opportunity for ventilation along the sides. (I think that the tubes can make a difference on a fully inflated Downmat on the ground, though - they can get pretty stiff.)

    So with the CCF vs underquilt debate, I think it's simple - people are different. Some people sweat more than others when they sleep, and the threshhold between insensible perspiration and discomfort for each hammocker is different. For this reason, CCF is not a good choice for me.

    My biggest reason for using underquilts and insulated hammocks is simply comfort. I don't like wrestling with pads in the hammock, and I like sleeping directly on the (breathable) hammock material. The Downmat is much more comfortable than any other I've used, but I still have to stay on it and that restricts my comfort options somewhat.

    That said, I'm intrigued by the silnylon half-underquilts that Warbonnet makes. I'm trying to figure out how to incorporate something like that into my system, but some of the details make it not quite work for what I want. That's a discussion for another thread that I may start in the next few days.

    Anyway, I tend to lean towards breathable hammocks and insulation because, for me, it's been the most comfortable.
    “Republics are created by the virtue, public spirit, and intelligence of the citizens. They fall when the wise are banished from the public councils because they dare to be honest, and the profligate are rewarded because they flatter the people, in order to betray them.” ~Judge Joseph Story

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  5. #25
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    Jeff,

    Glad to see you back.

    I've said before that vapor barriers work well for people that know when and how to use them and are often problems or even disasters for people that don't. The fact that sometimes you have a problem with vapor barriers (with closed cell foam pads) and other times you don't (when you use your DAM) indicates to me that you haven't figured it out yet. I would suspect that a partially inflated DAM makes as much contact with your body as a ccf pad does, if not more. One of the reasons that partially inflated air mats (including DAMs) feel so cushy is because they make contact with so much of your body and don't have gaps that cause uncomfortable pressure points.

    Many times people use ccf pads in hammocks without sweat issues and without getting cold or cool. Just look at all the users of Claytor's two layer hammocks on this forum that use ccf pads with them or the number of people using SPEs. Vapor barriers don't handle sweat well nearly as well as breathable insulation, the user has to understand that and also how to deal with insensible perspiration. Insensible perspiration is often dealt with by the fabric incorporated into the pad for some DAMs and some self inflating mats, but not all of them. The generic flat surface ccf pads definately need some type of wicking material between them and you. You don't want to lay directly on them with bare skin or something that doesn't have a surface to wick out on. You want any moisture to have an area to wick out into so the any moisture can vaporize into the surrounding air. And that depends on the air not being so humid that it can't accept anymore moisture. SPEs help with that as does the top layer of fabric in a two layer hammock.

    And while handling sweat from overheating is a weakness with a vapor barrier, it has just as a compelling strength as a supplement when you are trying to keep warm with breathable insulation. It will allow you to use your breathable insulation more efficiently and stay warm at lower temperatures.
    Youngblood AT2000

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillyBob58 View Post
    Has any one else here had sweaty back syndrome using the Claytor Jungle Hammock in the summer time?
    Bill,

    I am sure someone will. I can be sweating or nearly sweating in a single-layer breathable hammock at a particular temperature, move to a net hammock (think strings) and not sweat. You just have to pick the right temperature for that to happen. We did that at the Hot Springs campout last June when it was toasty outside. I have done basically the same thing with a single-layer breathable hammock versus a double-layer breathable hammock, although that isn't as pronounced. At a certain temperature you can be uncomfortably warm in one while comfortable in another. There is a shift in how warm or how cool they are just as it is with different shirts or jackets.
    Youngblood AT2000

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by smithobx View Post
    "Just like a net hammock wouldn't be a wise choice when snow camping" Why, if you use pads and a sufficient bag or quilt , would a net be a bad thing? I don't understand Youngblood.-John
    John,

    My thinking is that you will have more opportunities for convective cooling with a net hammock because it won't restrict nearby air flow like a solid material hammock would. That isn't saying that you can't do it, just that a less breathable hammock seems like a better choice when you are trying to stay warm and a more breathable hammock seems like a better choice when you are trying to stay cool.
    Youngblood AT2000

  8. #28
    smithobx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Youngblood View Post
    John,

    My thinking is that you will have more opportunities for convective cooling with a net hammock because it won't restrict nearby air flow like a solid material hammock would. That isn't saying that you can't do it, just that a less breathable hammock seems like a better choice when you are trying to stay warm and a more breathable hammock seems like a better choice when you are trying to stay cool.
    Yikes, I really misunderstood what you were saying, I thought you meant hammocks with a net, not hammocks made of netting. I agree with you. As you know, I am a Claytor user and have used both underquilts and pads and on occasion a combination of both. I am also a big fan of your SPE. I have had no issues with either system in the Claytor and for me I use pads mostly, in the SPE. I still have 2 underquilts but so far my results with them has been mixed.

  9. #29
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Youngblood View Post
    Bill,

    I am sure someone will. I can be sweating or nearly sweating in a single-layer breathable hammock at a particular temperature, move to a net hammock (think strings) and not sweat. .........
    Yes, I should have been more specific in my question. For sure, if it is warm enough ( and for me, and using a bug net, mid to high 70s will be hot enough) to sweat in general, I am most likely am for sure going to sweat on my back with a CJH and it's WP bottom. I guess what I am trying to find out is if the WP bottom of the JH is significantly more of a problem for causing back sweat than a breathable hammock. Say at temps below 75 at night. So far, I have not noticed much of a dif ( though maybe a little), which kind of surprises me.
    Bill
    For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us....that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
    Romans 8:18,21-22

  10. #30
    Senior Member Just Jeff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Youngblood View Post
    indicates to me that you haven't figured it out yet.
    Haha - as you've told me several times over the years. I use VBs (or sometimes pseudo-VBs like "breathable" raingear) at times to extend the comfort range of my system, and it has worked well for me during those times. But I've used CCFs in a variety of conditions and have never been very comfortable on them, mainly due to moisture management. As I said in my post, what's comfortable for some folks simply isn't acceptable for others. Doesn't make either method right or wrong...and the fact that moisture management is more of an issue for some people than for others doesn't necessarily mean that they don't understand.

    I use my Downmat inflated nearly all the way, so it holds me up higher in the hammock. It barely wraps around my sides...I don't even need wings or a SPE with it b/c it holds me high enough that the hammock doesn't compress my quilt. It certainly doesn't wrap around me as much as the CCF pads did. I did a lot of my experimenting with the 24" Walmart egg crate (not the OCF version), and some more with a 20" pad I got in Germany. My Downmat is either 19" or 20" wide...don't recall offhand.

    Are you coming to Hot Springs in September?
    “Republics are created by the virtue, public spirit, and intelligence of the citizens. They fall when the wise are banished from the public councils because they dare to be honest, and the profligate are rewarded because they flatter the people, in order to betray them.” ~Judge Joseph Story

    - My site: http://www.tothewoods.net/
    - Designer, Jeff's Gear Hammock / Pack Cover by JRB

    IMPOSSIBLE JUST TAKES LONGER

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