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  1. #1
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    PG insulation test

    After reading the thread about "camping in fog" and "vapor barriers", it made me want to test something out. Though this piece of gear is not a hammock, I do wear it in a hammock, and the test could apply to UQs and top quilts used in a hammock. It is a Polarguard jacket wit a Pertex Endurance WPB shell. I had just read an article at BPL about the importance of shells being breathable to aid in clothing and sleeping bags, synthetic or down, drying out overnight if they got damp. And I had my doubts about how breathable this Endurance would be, and was thinking maybe I should have ordered the hooded pullover with out the Pertex Endurance.

    I was getting ready to take a walk in 39*F right after sunset. So I did what people normally do with their jackets before going out side, I soaked it. That sounds rational, right? ( Also encouraging me to do this: my wife was not home yet, so she would not have to worry about my insanity)

    Earlier today I was having to do some work outside, and even though it was no colder than 48*F( though windy), I was freezing. So I went in and took off my Gore windblock fleece jacket and replaced it with my Bozeman Moutain Works PG jacket with hood, plus replace my shoes with some very old Goretex Vasque Sundowner boots. This made a word of dif, and I was able to finish my work and stay comfortable.

    But then the Sun went down, it dropped to 39*, and it was time for my little hike. So, I take my PG jacket and put it over the sink and poured one cup of water on the inside surface. I tried to keep the water on the right front and back, trying to keep the other side dry. It was not being soaked up much, and the other side was WPB Endurance fabric, so it just stayed there making a couple of little lakes inside the jacket. Somehow, while trying to pour it out, I poured it all down the right sleeve.

    After I lightly squeezed it out, I decided I was not satisfied with it's wetness. So I repeated, and poured another cup of water onto the inside. Once again with the little lakes. But I had major lack of coordination, and this time while trying not to pour down the sleeve, I poured it all over my jean leg, right side. After much cussing as I was getting ready to change jeans, I decided to heck with it, I would just wear the wet jeans and make it part of the test.

    So I lightly and quickly squeeze the jacket out again, put it on and head out. I had on a thin long john top so I wouldn't feel the water so much against my skin. About the time I got to the first street light, I passed a neighbor going the other way. I hoped she wouldn't glance at my leg, as it would surely look like I had pissed myself. I walked 1.6 miles as fast as I could go, between 20 and 30 minutes ( forgot to time it exactly).

    At first I thought that, while not actually being cold, I could tell a dif in warmth between the r side and l side. But after about a half a mile or so, I got to where I couldn't tell much dif, if any.

    I got home( now 38*), and felt inside the jacket- both r and l front sides felt about the same, warmth wise. I took the jacket off and felt around the front, back and inside the sleeve. I could find no hint of water at all. Nor inside the r sleeve. My long john top and every surface inside the jacket all felt equally dry, which is to say- bone dry. And I had been plenty warm while outside, although I was moving the whole time.

    So, there you have it. I don't know if this proves anything useful or not. But I do think it at least shows that this particular WPB shell is breathable enough for insulation to dry out from body heat, at least when worn very close to the skin. And I was warm in a wet garment, though I was moving the whole time, and I might have noticed a bigger dif if I had stopped. As far as I could tell, I was somewhat as warm in the wet areas as I was in the dry. Though I might have been cold if I stopped moving. And the insulation dried about as quickly as one could have hoped, even if it had been colder on the wet areas.

    Those positive results exceeded expectations. I thoght it would at least still be pretty damp in there, but it was not. And this was enough fun that I think I will do similar experiments with other gear in the future!

    My jean legs were still damp and quite cool a couple of hours later.

  2. #2
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    BillyBob,

    That's all fine and well... for those conditions.

    You were generating heat from hiking with initially damp, breathable insulation. It dried out for you and kept you warm in those conditions. In particular I would like to point out you were not in a high humidity situation... the environment cooperated with you to some degree as you were able to dry it out.

    Years ago folk(s) were claiming you could hike in the rain in certain breathable jackets and be comfortable, as your body heat would handle the moisture from the rain and you would find this nice equilibrium where everything would be just fine... cooling water coming in kind of canceled by excess heat generated from hiking. Well, being inexperienced, I bought in to that on one winter backpacking trip and thought I might die before I got out of there. Once again, the devil is in the details.

    In my situation it had started with a light misting type of rain with temperatures in the mid to high 40Fs with no indication of heavier rains or wind, etc. It started out fine, I was comfy hiking in the very jacket one person had used. Then it gradually started raining harder. I'm not so fine but I hang in there and use my umbrella. Now, it rains even harder, the wind picks up, the temperature drops fast, and the rain... gosh the temperature of the rain drops felt like they were below freezing. Being a light weight backpacker, I don't have redundant insulation and part of my primary insulation is now soaking wet when I need it the most. I have my rain gear on and my vest etc. But everything isn't okay, I have a problem. (What I have learned since then is some this very breathable rain gear isn't as waterproof as we think and will leak in those conditions.)

    Several things saved me on that trip. Probably most important was that I wasn't alone. Two heads (when idiots aren't involved) are better than one, especially when bad decisions can have serious consequences. Second, I was on the AT where those little 3-sided shelters look like heaven in those situations. Third, I had kept my sleeping bag dry as well as my long johns and other sleeping clothes. Now, it was rough night as it got down well below freezing. Shoes freeze, wet clothes freeze, water freezes, you will freeze if you aren't careful, etc... you get the picture. And, you need to get up the next day and wear those wet clothes, shoes, have that water to drink, etc... you get the picture.

    In those days I used a tent in the winter but sleep in the shelter that night. I had packed plenty of plastic bags, used a sleeping bag that was long enough to put things in the foot pocket to keep them from freezing. After eating and warming up, I would take one item of clothing I needed for the next day and put it on my chest to dry it out. All night long I had to do that and have snacks available to help keep warm. It was a long night, I got no sleep that I recall but I dried enough things out for the next day. The rain stopped and the sun was shining and wind was gone the next morning. It was a beautiful but very cold (for me) day.

    What I am trying to point out with that lengthy story is to be careful thinking that wet insulation isn't too much of a problem. The situation you find yourself in can have everything to do with determining how much of a problem you have with wet insulation. You may not have any problem at all with wet insulation, or you may just be a little uncomfortable because of it, or you may struggle to survive because of it, or you might not survive because of it. Obviously the colder the conditions, the more serious it can be.
    Youngblood AT2000

  3. #3
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Hi YB,
    After I posted late last night, I realized I probably needed to post more, because I may have given the wrong impression of what I thought the conclusions of my little "kill time" test proved. However, I did give the caveat of:"I don't know if this proves anything useful or not".

    Yes, I realize everything you say, and evrything you say is correct. I know this from personal experience, some of it very similar to your experience.

    (warning: repeat story told oft before! feel free to skip ahead!) Mine was on a NOLS course 23 years ago. On the night of June 26th, 1985 I went to bed to the sound of mosquitoes buzzing in my ear and rain hitting my tarp. I woke up in the middle of the night to silence and with the tarp laying on top of me and 2 tarp mates, collapsed by the weight of wet heavy snow. We hiked all day, doing a Tyrolean traverse of the raging East Fork River, in blowing snow. When it came time to make camp, I found that my pack and coated nylon stuff sacks were not waterproof after all. I had a coated nylon poncho, which kept the blowing snow off my upper body ok I guess, but naturally there was a lot of sweating going on. We crawled under the tarp into quite damp or even wet bags. I wore every piece of ( wet/damp) clothing I could, all of which was at least damp. Everything was synthetic. My bag was a NOLS issue which weighed several pounds, but had lost a lot of it's original loft before I ever got in it. It was blowing and snowing all night, for a total of about a foot and a half, and 24*F.

    My wet boots were under my sleeping bag hood on top of the pad, attempting to insulate them somewhat. The worst part was I had to get up at least 3 times to take a leak. I had to go back out in the snow. By about 3 or 4 AM, I could only get part way into my boots because they were frozen bricks.

    Like your experience, it was a long night. I had a bag of sunflower seed beside me which I munched on all night. I did a lot of shivering. I did a lot of sit ups trying to generate more body heat. My friend Jim had it worse when a snow loaded tree branch broke and ripped a big hole in his tarp, dumping a big load of new wet snow in his face. Plus, now he had a big hole in his tarp in a snowstorm.

    By the next morning, the sun was up and shining bright, but cold. Most folks clothing and bags were at least mostly dry. But most every ones boots were frozen solid. In retrospect, I think a lot of my misery that night was as much due to the inadequacy of bag loft to start with as it was being wet. Plus, I went to bed ( as we all did) cold. Some folks had synthetic bags that were not nearly so worn out loft wise( they brought their own bags- I did too but it was down and they wouldn't let me take it), and they had much better nights than I did.

    Anyway, I know exactly what you mean about things often not working out as advertised or as expected. My coated nylon did not get the job done at the end of the day. And sweat while hiking was a problem.

    The test last night was only for the specified conditions. In only 39*F dropping to 38*F( not very cold) in what was probably about 75% humidity. Which included a vigorous 20 or 30 minute hike on purpose. To generate body heat to see how well it would dry out, if at all. I didn't expect much even while hiking for so short a time. This jacket is not seam sealed and is not meant as a jacket for hard rain. It is meant(IMO) to provide great wind protection and shrug off short rain exposure, or maybe under a poncho, or maybe for snow protection.. I always have separate rain gear with it.

    So every one, don't get me wrong about what I am saying from the results. I don't yet know how this would work if I was not generating at least moderate body heat, say while laying in a sleeping bag. And it probably would still get me cold if I was hiking in a cold rain managing to soak through the supposedly waterproof Endurance fabric, which is not even seam sealed.

    However, I still think the results were surprisingly excellent. Bone dry and full warmth after only a 20-30 minute hike. Really, just a brisk walk down the street. After having poured 2 cups of water on the inside insulation and letting it sit a couple of minutes. My main concern was that the Endurance "waterproof/breathable" fabric would not prove breathable enough to allow the insulation to dry out even while moving. That proved to be totally not the case. While moving, less than 30 minutes was enough to get it bone dry.

    But like YB said, that is only fine as far as it goes. Different conditions, like sleeping instead of walking, or walking in the rain, would probably not do as well, and might even do poorly. However, the surprisingly excellent results of this test makes me want to do some more tests under tougher ( but still safe) circumstances!

    But of course, whatever your insulation or shell material, needless to say, do everything you can to keep your insulation dry. Just a cuationary statement for any absolute newbies to back country traveling!
    Last edited by BillyBob58; 12-03-2008 at 12:55.

  4. #4
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    isn't the pertex more of a dwr than a wpb? good test, alot of dwr's seem hard to blow through too though, at least the pertex seems like it's still fairly breathable from your results. you shoould do the same thing with a gore-tex shell and see if there is a difference.

  5. #5
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by warbonnetguy View Post
    isn't the pertex more of a dwr than a wpb? good test, alot of dwr's seem hard to blow through too though, at least the pertex seems like it's still fairly breathable from your results. you shoould do the same thing with a gore-tex shell and see if there is a difference.
    The Pertex Endurance shell on this jacket and on my Cat's Meow Endurance bag were called WPB by the manufacturers, TNF(bag) and Bozeman Mountain Works/BPL. It is also hard to blow through. It seems to me I have seen tests on the Endurance and it is only Waterproof to a couple of pounds/sq.in or so pressure, but I'm not sure. I have never been able to get in water through it under the faucet(sp?), or when letting water sit in a depression for long periods. But heavy rain might do it in after a while, I don't know.

    Actually, I just went to the manufacturer sight, where it says they do not call it WP, because that relates to sealed seams and such? But they say it achieves a water column of 1000 mm ( about 39.37 inches?), whatever that means exactly. But they also say it "keeps water, snow and wind out" and "light rain and snow can not penetrate". It is an ultra-thin membrane bonded to a nylon fabric, which of course also has a DWR. They do say it is 100% windproof.

    But now I know that it is at least breathable enough that a reasonable amount of body heat will dry it( the wet PG) quickly once I get under shelter, at the very least. This is mainly reassuring, in the real world, in case I over exert and get it wet from sweat. Or if I use the technique I saw at BPL: After hiking uphill in the cold rain or snow, and stopping for a SHORT break, as quickly as possible put your PG ( WPB or not, but at least DWR) on over your rain jacket. Though I suppose this would or should include quickly putting up a tarp if needed. But you PG would still get wet from your rain jacket or poncho. But it should dry quickly from body heat, if you have some body heat. For longer stops- again I am assuming this is without putting up a tarp- you will have to obviously put your rain jacket over your insulated jacket, unless it is "WPB". But I can see it will be easy to get the insulation at least damp or worse during such times.

  6. #6
    Senior Member BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Youngblood, what were you using?

    Quote Originally Posted by Youngblood View Post
    BillyBob,........................................
    Years ago folk(s) were claiming you could hike in the rain in certain breathable jackets and be comfortable, as your body heat would handle the moisture from the rain and you would find this nice equilibrium where everything would be just fine... cooling water coming in kind of canceled by excess heat generated from hiking. Well, being inexperienced, I bought in to that on one winter backpacking trip and thought I might die before I got out of there. Once again, the devil is in the details. ..................
    Hey YB, what was that you were trying to use? Was it from Buffalo Systems?

    There was an interesting article and review at BPL recently, about Pertex Pile systems. These concentrate on breathable shells that are only water resistant, on the theory that you are going to get wet any way, from sweat if nothing else. Then they count on the wickability of the pile to keep you warm and mainly to dry out quick. Here is the start of the article:

    Pertex/Pile products were born in the wet cold of the British hills, way back in the late 1970s. Mountaineer and gear designer Hamish Hamilton, famous in the British camping world for creating the distinctive orange double-A pole Vango Force 10 tents that took tent design to a new level in the 1960s, became intrigued by the possibilities of a nylon fabric.

    Moisture was drawn along the fibers of the nylon by capillary action, so it could spread out and evaporate quickly. Hamilton worked with Perseverance Mills in Northern England to develop such a nylon, which was named Pertex. (Since 2005, Pertex has been owned by Japanese company Mitsui.) Initially, Hamilton used Pertex as a shell fabric for sleeping bags made from a shaggy fabric called fiber-pile, making them windproof and water-resistant. He soon realized, though, that the combination of Pertex and pile could be used for shell clothing.

    Unlike other designers, Hamilton was looking at shells from the point of view of comfort rather than waterproofing, on the basis that in heavy rain, nothing will keep you totally dry, and thought that Pertex/Pile clothing would wick moisture rapidly, insulate well, keep wind out, shed all but the heaviest rain, and dry fast. The result was the first Pertex/Pile garment, the Mountain Shirt, made and marketed by Hamilton's company Buffalo Systems.
    Is this any thing like you were using? If so, it doesn't sound like it worked very well for you.
    Last edited by BillyBob58; 12-03-2008 at 16:04.

  7. #7
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    bb, my mistake, i was thinking of pertex quantum, i believe that is more of a dwr, didn't realize they had a wpb too.

    that article you noted above makes sense, it is the same idea behind the marmot windshirt. it has dri-clime on the inside, which is a polyester microfiber or ultra thin fleece that wicks any moisture away to the outer nylon shell. the shell isn't even dwr(at least not after several years of use). it's my favorite piece of clothing, works great, even when the shell is soaked, it is dry against the skin, it blocks wind and seems to dry extremely fast. i love my windshirt.

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    BillyBob,

    I was using a Patagonia Zepher, circa 1999. They changed the design last time I looked. The one I have has a thin micro fleece liner with a loosely attached nylon outer shell.

    The whole concept of hiking in the rain with wicking pile insulation is troubling to me. That works well in very specific conditions but if those conditions change you can get in trouble. And if you are out there backpacking, well you know how that goes-- you can't call time out and run to your closet to get something else, and you can't always get out of the wind/rain/cold when you need to get to your gear and change into dry cloths without exposing yourself and what is inside your pack.

    It is a balancing act where the cooling effect of the water coming in is matched by the excessive heat you generate such that you stay sorta dry and reasonably comfortable. But if that balance changes where wind enters into it, or the rain rate significantly increases such that in overwhelms the excess heat you generate, or the temperatures drop below some threshold, or you stop generating that heat level... then you aren't comfortable and your insulation isn't dry so it isn't going to provide the insulation it could if it was dry or drier.
    Youngblood AT2000

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Youngblood View Post
    BillyBob,

    I was using a Patagonia Zepher, circa 1999. They changed the design last time I looked. The one I have has a thin micro fleece liner with a loosely attached nylon outer shell.

    The whole concept of hiking in the rain with wicking pile insulation is troubling to me. That works well in very specific conditions but if those conditions change you can get in trouble. And if you are out there backpacking, well you know how that goes-- you can't call time out and run to your closet to get something else, and you can't always get out of the wind/rain/cold when you need to get to your gear and change into dry cloths without exposing yourself and what is inside your pack.

    It is a balancing act where the cooling effect of the water coming in is matched by the excessive heat you generate such that you stay sorta dry and reasonably comfortable. But if that balance changes where wind enters into it, or the rain rate significantly increases such that in overwhelms the excess heat you generate, or the temperatures drop below some threshold, or you stop generating that heat level... then you aren't comfortable and your insulation isn't dry so it isn't going to provide the insulation it could if it was dry or drier.
    Is this some sort of soft shell stuff?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillyBob58 View Post

    Actually, I just went to the manufacturer sight, where it says they do not call it WP, because that relates to sealed seams and such? But they say it achieves a water column of 1000 mm ( about 39.37 inches?), whatever that means exactly. But they also say it "keeps water, snow and wind out" and "light rain and snow can not penetrate". It is an ultra-thin membrane bonded to a nylon fabric, which of course also has a DWR. They do say it is 100% windproof.
    BillyBob,

    Read through this article by Jim Wood http://jwbasecamp.com/Articles/Silnylon1/index.html . I think you will find it interesting and he has things to say about 'degree of waterproof' and how that relates to the water column numbers.
    Youngblood AT2000

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