Kind of lost - Insulation

[sledjockey]

I am sure that this has been covered in threads, but since I can't find it after quite a while of searching (and using search function) I decided to just suck it up and ask for some help.

You can blame it on me being a noob on the forum as well, if you desire.

Anyway, here is what I need some help with and some explanation to get my desired answer more focused:

I am looking for underquilt insulation and it seems that everything but down uses some foreign language with no Babelfish translator.

I see most people using down for their insulation. That is great and wonderful. No issues with that and the use of down is VERY well documented here on the site. Big kudos and thank you. There are also a few things about using other loose insulation that mimics the way that down is filled into underquilt baffles. The problem is that I was looking at primaloft that is in a roll. It would have to be quilted, I know. It also cuts down on a few things like cost and build time since it eliminates the need for baffles. Also, cost is much less.... Now here is one of the many places that I have a lack of knowledge:

The loft on this roll of the 3 oz primaloft one is about 1" according to the lady working the counter of the store I called. They also have a 5 oz version. Now I have NO idea how the 3 oz versus 5 oz version is figured, what the real weight is per yard of fabric, how much I need (such as doubling up for proper warmth), or if it is going to be too heavy compared to other options. If I am just being stupid and trying to reinvent a wheel that is already perfect, etc.

I am willing to take a bit more weight so I can save money. I figured it out and I can build both a 3 oz single layer and a 5 oz single layer model that can be hooked together that will have ultralight silicone nylon fabric (if that is a good choice) for about 1/3 the price of a production or 2/3 the price of a DIY down model. I saw the ENO Ember underquilt that seems to be made of something other than down, so I know that synthetic rolls of insulation is an option.

Can someone PLEASE give me some lessons or direction where I can go to get an education on this stuff, how many layers I would need, if I am thinking ok on the silicone nylon cloth stuffs, etc? I just can't afford the prices associated with down at the moment and making the baffled underquilt to put the down in also seems a bit of a stretch.

Thank you in advance. I am sorry if this has been covered before, but like I mentioned before I can't find what I am looking for. Maybe I am just a bit too undereducated in some of these areas to be able to understand what I am reading. At any rate, thanks for your help.

[doogie]

There is this https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/...ad.php?t=23881

DIY Gear Supply carries the IX

My guess is that you are looking at Climashield as seen here http://thru-hiker.com/materials/insulation.php

DIY thread here: https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/...ad.php?t=27876

[sledjockey]

Thank you very much. I even see some comments on weight, so that should give me some idea as to how much it should weigh after I am done.

The insulation I was looking at his here:

http://www.seattlefabrics.com/insulations.html

They also had the silicone nylon fabric I was looking at.

So if I made both the 3 oz and 5 oz with a way to connect them together like a MSS (military sleeping system) then I could theoretically have a REALLY warm sleeping system capable of some pretty cold nights.

Thank you again. These links really help a lot.

[Les Rust]

Welcome to HF. You'll find some information about synthetics from Ray Jardine on his website http://www.rayjardine.com/index.shtml. He has had good experience with synthetics even in Antarctica. I have a DIY top quilt from climashield that has taken me down in the 30s with no problem. Others will weigh in, but for the money it can be good solid kit.

[FLRider]

Basics of synthetic insulation...

Pros: Cheaper than down for an equivalent temperature rating. Easier to work with than down. Resists moisture better than down (though the hydrophobic-treated down may change this soon; I'm waiting to see more data before judging that stuff).

Cons: Heavier than down for an equivalent temperature rating. Much bulkier than down for an equivalent temperature rating.

To find a rough temperature estimate for synthetic insulation, you're going to need to find out what it's CLO rating is. CLO is a measurement invented by the CLOthing industry (funny, huh?) that measures comfort versus temperature. 1 CLO value is the equivalent of the clothing needed to keep the mythical "average" male warm while sitting in a 70* F office. Essentially, a wool suit. Each CLO of insulation is worth ~14* below 84*, assuming that you don't wear a base layer (if you do--and I recommend that you do--this will be subtracted from 70* instead, as a good base layer is roughly worth 1 CLO on its own).

Why this is important for you is that most high-end synthetic insulations have a listed CLO value. This will be for a 1 oz/sq yd weight of the insulation. From that, you can extrapolate the temperature that a given weight of a synthetic insulation will get you to.

For example, the Primaloft Sport insulation you linked to has a CLO value of 0.79/oz/sq yd (per Thru-Hiker; if you want, I can dig out the CLO for Primaloft ONE as well). Assuming that you made a quilt out of the 3 oz/sq yd Primaloft Sport, that quilt would be good to ~51* without a base layer or ~37* with a base layer (84 - ([0.79 * 3] * 14) = 50.82 or 70 - ([0.79 * 3] * 14) = 36.82).

Note that this is for the mythical "average sleeper" and doesn't take into account any variables like wind, humidity, caloric intake, dehydration, etc. I'd ballpark the comfort zone of a 3 oz/sq yd Primaloft Sport as 40* to 45* F, just to be on the safe side.

For 5 oz/sq yd, that would work out to be ~29* F without a base layer or ~15* with one. Again, with all of the variables involved, I'd ballpark that as 20* to 25* F as a comfort zone.

If you combine them, I'd figure somewhere in the range of 5* to 10*, since I'd assume that imperfections in the fit between the two of them would halve the effectiveness of the lighter quilt. Note that this is a very pessimistic assumption, but I'd rather err on the side of bringing too much insulation under those kinds of conditions; dying of hypothermia would be suboptimal.

Definitely, definitely backyard test before taking the numbers of a random person on the internet out into the wild, though. These are very rough estimates, and I am not an engineer.

For your fabric choice, you'll definitely want breathable nylon, not silicone-coated stuff. The reason for this is that, ideally, you want all of the water vapor from your body to pass through the insulation and be expelled into the air surrounding you. Otherwise, you're likely to wake up damp--and that can be a recipe for hypothermia. While some swear by vapor barrier clothing and quilts, those are definitely a more advanced system for warmth than I'd personally want to tackle for my first set of quilts.

For ease of sewing, Climashield (which can be found at Outdoor Wilderness Fabrics; click on the "Insulations" tab) is superior to Primaloft; whereas Primaloft requires quilting loops spaced throughout, Climashield does not (you just need to sew the perimeter to the shell fabric). Just a thought for your first quilt.

Hope it helps!

[Catavarie]

The research I've done on Primaloft says that to find the temperature rating you use the following formula:

60 - (Oz/yd X 5)= F temp rating

So for your 3oz that would give you a rating of 45°F and for the 5oz 25° both used together would get you around 10°F. Of course each person's actual numbers can vary a good bit.

I would choose the regular 1.1 uncoated ripstop nylon instead of the silnylon. Will save you a little weight and some money as well. You don't have to worry so much about a little water as it won't affect the performance of the insulation.

As for construction check out the original DIY KAQ Instructions found on the forums.

[stalker42]

I would look carefully at climasheild apex. Awesome stuff. Still bulkier than down but not much heavier and its more compressable then primaloft.

[vwgerald]

+1 on the climashield apex, i got mine from http://thru-hiker.com/materials/insulation.php i have used both the 2.5 and 5.0 in quilts and have been very happy with the results from both.

[sledjockey]

I have been working off the suggestions and links I have received. I REALLY appreciate the help and direction. Now I get to wait to see how the final creation looks and works. I can't wait!!!!

Thanks again to everyone who has responded and given me some help/direction. It really helped a lot.

[FLRider]

I have been working off the suggestions and links I have received. I REALLY appreciate the help and direction. Now I get to wait to see how the final creation looks and works. I can't wait!!!!

Thanks again to everyone who has responded and given me some help/direction. It really helped a lot.

Not a problem. Be sure and share how it goes!