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  1. #21
    Mouseskowitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilvrSurfr View Post
    I'm sure it won't stop people from using knots with Amsteel, but it gives me peace of mind and confirms what I already thought.
    Although I personally wouldn't use anything other than a larks head in Amsteel, I'm sure others will. That really isn't a problem as long as they understand the limitations of what they're working with. Everyone has to decide what kind of safety factor works for them, but they need to understand their equipment to do that.

  2. #22
    Mouseskowitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firetruck View Post
    This is the first time i've seen this post. What's ironic is I was looking up how to determine loads on a rope with the forces placed on it in a hammock just this morning. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZNSoSIurQ8

    My hammocks have 7/64 amsteel whoopie slings. I'm over 300# and have concerns as to how long this stuff will hold me. Thought about going to 1/8.

    BTW the formula didn't help a bit. I done gragiated from the 6th grade ya no.
    Have you looked at this calculator yet? No math required. With a larks head in the 7/64 you still looking at 900+lb. As long as you maintain a 30* hang it will give you a safety factor of 3. Going up to 1/8 would take the safety factor up to 5. You are the only one that can decide what is best for you.

    Whatever you go with it is always good practice to inspect your gear and replace it before it fails on you. I haven't had time to read it yet, but starting on p46 of the pdf there is a section on wear and damage evaluations of Amsteel.

  3. #23
    Senior Member turnerminator's Avatar
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    I spot a little flaw in the testing of those knots;

    they don't appear to have wetted the lines before tieing.

    Every fisherman who uses dyneema, even nylon monofil, knows to wet the knot first before pulling tight. If you don't wet, you usually lose the fish through the knot failing.

    If the knot isn't wetted, it won't tighten fully and also causes damage to the line as its tightened due to heat build up. Heat build up is a big problem for low melting point lines and is why Dyneema isn't first choice for climbers Prussics/ Klemheists.

    I'd love to see some tests with wetted knots and knots that are known to work with Dyneema. The diamond/lanyard knot doesn't derate the line much at all, being destruction tested by Opie a while ago at 175% on a Nacrabiner.

    I'd like to see the Palomar, 4 turn Grinner and those knots wetted before testing. I have tested dyneema braid on fishing knots to make sure the line is accurately rated and with a wetted and well formed knot, the B.Strain is usually very close to the lines rating.

    A bloodknot, tucked or not will always fail prematurely in Dyneema IME.

  4. #24
    MAD777's Avatar
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    Why knots are not recommended in Amsteel or similar lines

    Since we hammockers mostly splice our lines, the thing that worries me is the turn radius around whatever we are attaching to. Whether that be a carabiner, whoopie hook, elephant trunk or other hardware, I think it derates the line similar to a knot. In this case, the failure won't be from slipping but from a line break.

    That being said, Dynaglide on a whoopie hook has been holding up my 200 pounds for over a year.
    Mike
    "Life is a Project!"

  5. #25

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    While not disagreeing over the effects of wetting on knots I think it fair to say few folks would wet their hammock lines...

    What I would like to see is a test of a clove hitch.

    FWIW - I weigh in at a a bit over 250 and I used 1/8 amsteel for the whoopee's I made. There are too many variables for me to trust 7/64. YMMV, HYOH. Look at the force changes with a bad hang angle. ;-|
    YMMV

    HYOH

    Free advice worth what you paid for it. ;-)

  6. #26
    Mouseskowitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnerminator View Post
    I spot a little flaw in the testing of those knots;

    they don't appear to have wetted the lines before tieing.

    Every fisherman who uses dyneema, even nylon monofil, knows to wet the knot first before pulling tight. If you don't wet, you usually lose the fish through the knot failing.

    If the knot isn't wetted, it won't tighten fully and also causes damage to the line as its tightened due to heat build up. Heat build up is a big problem for low melting point lines and is why Dyneema isn't first choice for climbers Prussics/ Klemheists.

    I'd love to see some tests with wetted knots and knots that are known to work with Dyneema. The diamond/lanyard knot doesn't derate the line much at all, being destruction tested by Opie a while ago at 175% on a Nacrabiner.

    I'd like to see the Palomar, 4 turn Grinner and those knots wetted before testing. I have tested dyneema braid on fishing knots to make sure the line is accurately rated and with a wetted and well formed knot, the B.Strain is usually very close to the lines rating.

    A bloodknot, tucked or not will always fail prematurely in Dyneema IME.
    I see your point with wetting the knot. But I would disagree that it is a flaw in their testing. I believe the testing was done to simulate the conditions of usage, in this case logging. I highly doubt that any logger is going to carry around water just to wet knots. The knot types are probably also limited to those that are field expedient to the industry. If you aren't familiar with logging in Oregon look up Ax Men on the History Channel.

    My other question is if the knots have to be wet any time it is loaded or just on the first tightening? Obviously with fishing it is wet during use.

  7. #27
    Senior Member turnerminator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nothermark View Post
    While not disagreeing over the effects of wetting on knots I think it fair to say few folks would wet their hammock lines...

    What I would like to see is a test of a clove hitch.

    FWIW - I weigh in at a a bit over 250 and I used 1/8 amsteel for the whoopee's I made. There are too many variables for me to trust 7/64. YMMV, HYOH. Look at the force changes with a bad hang angle. ;-|
    I agree, not many will and I'd like a clove hitch too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mouseskowitz View Post
    I see your point with wetting the knot. But I would disagree that it is a flaw in their testing. I believe the testing was done to simulate the conditions of usage, in this case logging. I highly doubt that any logger is going to carry around water just to wet knots. The knot types are probably also limited to those that are field expedient to the industry. If you aren't familiar with logging in Oregon look up Ax Men on the History Channel.

    My other question is if the knots have to be wet any time it is loaded or just on the first tightening? Obviously with fishing it is wet during use.
    I love Ax men

    I started out in Forestry at school age, but our trees are chopsticks compared to yours.

    The carrying water is a little easier than first imagined-spit on the knot

    Yes, the knot should be well wetted when tightening to take away the heat caused by friction and lubricate the line so it beds in properly. I've wetted all my Nacrabiner knots out of habit really as thats how I've always done Dyneema fishing braid Knots.

    I agree, the average forester isn't going to gob on every knot and in the real world, thats how most will tie a knot-dry. I'm sure the results would have been markedly different though if it had been raining in the lab that day and the lines were all wet.

  8. #28
    Mouseskowitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by turnerminator View Post

    The carrying water is a little easier than first imagined-spit on the knot
    When you said wet I was thinking a couple ounces of water...

    What you are saying makes sense. I'm just curious if anyone has ever done any research to see how much of a difference it makes.

  9. #29
    Senior Member turnerminator's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mouseskowitz View Post
    When you said wet I was thinking a couple ounces of water...

    What you are saying makes sense. I'm just curious if anyone has ever done any research to see how much of a difference it makes.
    I would do some testing but I'm short of a weight heavy enough to test Amsteel 7/64. I'd like to see some, if only for academic reasons.

    Like the vast majority on here, I'll continue to splice to get the maximium performance. It's tested in the real world though in fishing applications and it also applies to other lines-Dacron, Flourocarbon and Nylon Monofilament lines but obviously on a much smaller scale. Our scale is somewhere in the middle of the 2.

    Great OP BTW, thanks for posting

  10. #30
    Member hecta_g's Avatar
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    I've been thinking the same thing about trying to simplify and using dyneema or amsteel.

    I do have an idea and was going to make a couple of samples and send it to a couple of the big fellas out there to give it a trial run.
    Psalm 46:10

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