Synthetic Performance

**dirtwheels** · 12-12-2013, 15:30

I do love down, but for those who will not hike/camp often like some folks in my family, how do the various synthetic options for DIY quilts compare?

Climashield it reported as best but are there any sources for something similar to the thermoball syn down from northface?

**nothermark** · 12-12-2013, 16:42

Do a search, this has been discussed endlessly. ;-)

**Rolloff** · 12-12-2013, 22:42

I'd +1 that on the search. You will get more there than you can in one thread, since there are several.

Synthetics are Synthetics. Always seem to be something new and ground breaking, but I don't see all that much difference in the newest gen, and the Polarguard, Hollowfill, that started the ball rolling for me. They all perform very close to the same. Have the same good qualities and not so good. Lowere price, but mainly not getting wetted out as quickly and drying out faster, easier vs greater weight penalty, and larger volume in packing.

As long as the your hike or outing, allows for just pulling off the trail and going home, or somewhere you can mechanically dry insulation, should the worst happen, the choice is probably always going to be down.

Once you leave that protective envelope, going into weather or areas and for lengths of time or duration, that prevent the above, then Syn becomes a much better choice. You take the weight and volume penalty and bite the bullet.

For most, the short distance, car, or weekend hiker/camper, applies. So you need to decide, on when, where, and what types of environs, you intend on enjoying or challenging.

**dirtwheels** · 12-12-2013, 22:56

Working on that, thanks.

Originally Posted by nothermark

Do a search, this has been discussed endlessly. ;-)

Thanks been nosing around, just looking for a UQ to introduce my adult daughter to hiking, may wind up using a pad. Looking at overnights and weekends for now.

Originally Posted by Rolloff

I'd +1 that on the search. You will get more there than you can in one thread, since there are several.

Synthetics are Synthetics. Always seem to be something new and ground breaking, but I don't see all that much difference in the newest gen, and the Polarguard, Hollowfill, that started the ball rolling for me. They all perform very close to the same. Have the same good qualities and not so good. Lowere price, but mainly not getting wetted out as quickly and drying out faster, easier vs greater weight penalty, and larger volume in packing.

As long as the your hike or outing, allows for just pulling off the trail and going home, or somewhere you can mechanically dry insulation, should the worst happen, the choice is probably always going to be down.

Once you leave that protective envelope, going into weather or areas and for lengths of time or duration, that prevent the above, then Syn becomes a much better choice. You take the weight and volume penalty and bite the bullet.

For most, the short distance, car, or weekend hiker/camper, applies. So you need to decide, on when, where, and what types of environs, you intend on enjoying or challenging.

**BillyBob58** · 12-12-2013, 23:03

Originally Posted by dirtwheels

Working on that, thanks.

Thanks been nosing around, just looking for a UQ to introduce my adult daughter to hiking, may wind up using a pad. Looking at overnights and weekends for now.

Well then you should definitely look at the AHE KAQ Jarbidge.

**Rolloff** · 12-12-2013, 23:25

Pads work just fine, down to about 30's for most. YMMV.

If you want to "hook" someone on hammock camping, a good UQ will go a lot further.

For some a pad(s) works fine, for others it's a task to stay on them, and side coverage is always a problem to overcome, around the shoulders and thighs. You can compensate, with an SPE, Reflectix, or CCF pads cut in half and used in a T shape. A Double layer hammock helps to keep the pads in place for some, where others want them inside the hammock itself, so they can move them around without getting out.

The over all no fuss, surrounding warmth, of a good UQ, will turn, usually the hardest of ground sleepers, into putty in your hands.

AHE makes the Jarbridge line of high quality, synthetic UQ's. A great way to get into an UQ with good price points, especially when compared to down. The For Sale section has some deals as well, but go forth prepared. Know what you want, and what is a reasonable used price for the item. Check often, early and late, and don't flinch when it finally comes up. The good stuff and best prices never last long.

I have 75 dollars invested in a used 20 degree UQ and 140 in a JRB Stealth Sniveler, off this forum, and wouldn't part with either at this point.

Good luck!
Rolloff

**Meekin** · 12-12-2013, 23:27

I bought the Jarbidge with Apex and extremely pleased with it. It took me down to the upper twenties with no issue and packs small. Not as small as down but small enough.

**dirtwheels** · 12-12-2013, 23:55

Thanks, more thinking DIY, maybe a copy of the Molly Mac 5 in 1 jerry chair. How does that compare to the jarbridge?

Originally Posted by BillyBob58

Well then you should definitely look at the AHE KAQ Jarbidge.

Thanks, I have an ENO pad extender (SPE) and a thermorest, but looking for something we can DIY together. A learning/introductory project. She's slept on a pad once in the 20's with an 40* UQ in a 15* down bag.

You're right UQ generally fly off the sale forum.

Originally Posted by Rolloff

Pads work just fine, down to about 30's for most. YMMV.

If you want to "hook" someone on hammock camping, a good UQ will go a lot further.

For some a pad(s) works fine, for others it's a task to stay on them, and side coverage is always a problem to overcome, around the shoulders and thighs. You can compensate, with an SPE, Reflectix, or CCF pads cut in half and used in a T shape. A Double layer hammock helps to keep the pads in place for some, where others want them inside the hammock itself, so they can move them around without getting out.

The over all no fuss, surrounding warmth, of a good UQ, will turn, usually the hardest of ground sleepers, into putty in your hands.

AHE makes the Jarbridge line of high quality, synthetic UQ's. A great way to get into an UQ with good price points, especially when compared to down. The For Sale section has some deals as well, but go forth prepared. Know what you want, and what is a reasonable used price for the item. Check often, early and late, and don't flinch when it finally comes up. The good stuff and best prices never last long.

I have 75 dollars invested in a used 20 degree UQ and 140 in a JRB Stealth Sniveler, off this forum, and wouldn't part with either at this point.

Good luck!
Rolloff

Thanks, have you seen or used a Molly Mac orca or jerry chair to compare?

Originally Posted by Meekin

I bought the Jarbidge with Apex and extremely pleased with it. It took me down to the upper twenties with no issue and packs small. Not as small as down but small enough.

**nothermark** · 12-13-2013, 08:10

Not knocking Molly Mac but they are different. You probably should see one to see what you are getting into. Most of the synthetic quilt fills are relatively thick pads of fluffy goodness. MacIntyre uses thin sheets of higher R foam so you do not get the loft if that matters to you. Whatever you go with you can find plans/explanations of design features in the old threads here that will make your first one a lot better than most people do just winging it. ;-)

**FLRider** · 12-13-2013, 13:34

Your best bet with spun synthetics comparisons is to look at what's called "CLO" value for the insulation per oz/sq yd.

CLO is a value of insulation that was standardized by the CLOthing (yes, it's really that bad of a pun) industry back in (I think I'm remembering this right) the fifties or sixties. 1 CLO is the amount of insulation needed by the theoretical "average" adult male to remain warm sitting still in 70* F A/C (in other words, a light wool suit--told ya it was the fifties or sixties...).

How that works for you is that a higher CLO/oz/sq yd value (usually abbreviated to just "CLO") means a warmer insulation for the weight. Climashield APEX has a CLO of 0.82. Primaloft ONE has a CLO of 0.9 (at least, according to their website claims). Those are, for the moment, the gold standard on the market for spun insulations (as opposed to foam insulations like IX or CCF).

Once you have the CLO value, you can figure out the needed weight of insulation for your desired temp range. The formulas for that are as follows:

If you do not wear a base layer to bed, this is the formula:

W = (84 - T) / (14 * CLO)

If you do wear a base layer to bed, this is the formula:

W = (70 - T) / (14 * CLO)

Where: W is the weight/sq yd of the insulation in ounces, T is the desired temp rating of the quilt, and CLO is the CLO value of the insulation per oz/sq yd.

That's a rough estimate, mind you. Factors such as caloric intake during the day, wind chill, humidity, exhaustion, cold or hot sleeper, and hydration also play a part in the quilt's rating.

Also, a note on Insultex. I've used IX before in a DIY underquilt. It works as an insulation, as long as you dart it correctly. On the other hand, I, personally, put out so much moisture when I sleep that I couldn't use it below about 50* F. It just made me so damp that my top insulation wasn't up to the job (and I use a poncho liner, which is meant to be used in damp conditions). That's not to say that it couldn't be used by everyone, and many--in fact--have had great success with using it. It just wasn't for me, at least without going the whole hog with vapor barriers. And I dislike sleeping clammily. YMMV.

Hope it helps!