I have an un used down comforter that is asking to be turned into a summer TQ and UQ. I think it might be 550 or 600ish fp down.
My question is at what fill power does down have similar properties as synthetic insulation i.e. weight to loft or compression to loft.
I plan on a 40° setup that will help supplement my winter 20° set. I also want a down hood, socks, and pillow out of it.
In my opinion, and speaking specifically about Climashield XP or Apex for UQs and especially differentially cut UQs, I'd say 800 FP or greater, without even getting into the superiority with moisture debate. Here is why I say this:Originally Posted by jlink79
I have been warm into the mid to high 40s with a WB Yeti(torso length) style UQ that used one layer of CS XP that weighed 2.5 oz per sq. yd. Since it is a torso sized UQ, that means the layer of CS was right about 1 sq yard and thus weighed right about 2.5 oz.
I do not know of any torso sized UQ that used even 800 FP down that would have kept me one bit warmer and also used only 2.5 oz of even 800 FP down. In fact, does any one even make an UQ rated anywhere near 40- say 45 or even 50- that uses only 2.5 oz of down? I'm not sure any are out there, but maybe.
But there is one more wrench in the works: Even if only 2.5 oz of 800-900 down is used and it is warm at 45-50, probably baffles would be needed for down so this is even more weight to be dealt with.
As you get into colder ratings, the weight of the baffles is overwhelmed by the warmth and light weight of the down, and even more so as you go higher than 800 FP. So the advantage becomes stronger with 20F and especially zero and below quilts. But I don't think the advantage is huge, more of a big advantage in stuff size.
Also, I suspect that down will drape down onto you better than continuous sheet synthetics like CS, so there may be a bigger difference and more advantage to down when looking at the TQs. My Yeti UQ is oukked tight to my back. I don't know, but it just seems like reviews I read of CS TQs people are not quite as warm as I and some others have been with TQs. Maybe a 5 or 10F dif, and I don't know for sure if that drape thing makes that big of a dif, but it might.
Thanks for your info. I like your point on a down TQ draping better. I already have a 20° TQ and UQ. My TQ is 800fp my UQ is a Jarbridge w/Apex upgrade.
My question was, is the weight/compression on a 40° climashield/apex quilt better that that of a low fill power i.e. 550fp quilt of the same dimensions and temp rating. Since the lower fp the heaver the down needed to make the same thing as a high fp. Also the lower the fp the less compression.
The full reason for this, is it worth the hassle of recovering a low fp down if it does not meet or exceed a much easier to use synthetic option. If in the end I have a less compressible and heavier quilt, the time and effort used to make it may be worth the expense of buying a synthetic alternative.
I do understand that doing the recovery and the diy is a good way to try and figure things out. I also want a second setup to let friends try out the whole hammocks thing.
I had an old down comforter that I turned into an UQ. I shook all the feathers to one side, sewed it down the center and cut off the excess fabric. It took some trial and error on how to attach it since I has significant weight to it, and I'll be happy to show pictures and tell you about it if you would like. I tried it out on a 3 day/2 night hunting trip and was really happy. I think it has about 4.5" loft and I don't know the "fp" count, but I was TOASTY warm at 19 degrees.
For me, I needed something soon and I didn't have the money to buy anything. It IS big, heavier, and bulkier than I'd like, but it's nothing that'll keep me from using it.
Yes, IMO. At a 45F rating, I don't think even 800FP down can match the warmth of CS Apex if the weight of the insulation(counting down baffles) is the same, until you get to colder rated quilts. If there is someone here that has taken a torso UQ with only 2.5 oz of down and baffles into the 40s, and been warm, then I probably am wrong. But even that would only be equal, so for there to be a significant advantage 2.5 oz of down/baffles would need to keep me warm below 45 or maybe 40F.
Can't say for sure about compression, but I doubt 550FP will be much, if any, more compressible than equal warmth CS Apex. 800 will be for sure, and of course even more so with 900.
As far as compression goes even very low fill power down will still trump high quality synthetic in a jacket/quilt/bag of the same temp rating however you will notice less of a difference in compessed size as the you use lower fill power down and higher quality of synthetic. Also keep in mind that the type of synthetic insulation can make a difference s well e.g. Continuous filament, short cut and so on.
But once again the weight to warmth of down vs synthetic varies depending mainly on the type of synthetic used but to get an idea look at some low fill power down bags preferably ones with an E.N. Temp rating and compare them to synthetic bags with the same rating (this is why the E.N. Rating helps so you have an accurate comparison) look at the fill weight on each bag and you'll probably see the difference. A site like REI is good for this kind of research cause they have the filters and stuff to make it a little faster.
I usually find that there you have to pay a premium for the high performance synthetics that makes them similar to the price of a mid price down bag some even to a high fill power/ price bag
BillyBob58 I am looking at Apex, but might have to do some competitive research like Outbackpacker3 suggested. I hoped someone might have some experience with the 2. Might be time to remove a couple ounces and test the loft. I do need a pillow and was going to get a couple things from dutch may add some argon to that. OutdoorDad my quit is a queen size did think it make a good peapod. It has a 3" loft but I think it has square baffling and doesn't shift to much. To bad it has a cotton shell, could just sew an outline cut then hem and have my quilt.
It starts to make sense to use synthetic at ~50 deg or so if you are looking solely at weight. The best synthetics compare to 500-550fp goose down in the weight to warmth ratio.
Ryan
Thanks Ryan that is what I was looking for. I have seen a few threads about recover/reuse down projects with a low fp, and thought is it worth it. Still going to test what I have with a pillow and or socks.
Based on calculations I did a while ago 5 oz/sqyrd of CS Apex is the same warmth as 1.2" of down (50*F). This is based on loft temp ratings on BPL (similar to Jardine Formula), EN rating for CLO, and reported CLO for CS Apex on Thruhiker. For a square yard 1.2" loft (and 30% standard over fill) for 550FP you'd have
V = L x W x H = 36 [in] x 36 [in] x 1.2 [in] = 1555.2 [in^3]
W = V / FP = 1555.2 [in^3] / 550 [in^3/oz] * 1.3 = 3.7 oz.
So 550fp for 50*F would weight 3.7 oz/sq yard
CS Apex is 5 oz/sq yard.
Now, in quilt construction there's a bit more material for a down quilt, due to the need for baffles. But that wont make up the difference.
And down will still compress more.
I should say, EN CLO to Temp Rating is very conservative. BillyBob58's example is proof of that. He claim's he can take 2.5 oz to 40*F. Every person sleeps differently, and EN rating's need to encompass everyone. I would guess BillyBob58 is a very warm sleeper. He also doesn't mention what he was wearing, weather conditions, if he hiked that day, or was camping in his back yard, etc.. which can all impact warmth. Here's a good example: Many claim a P/L underquilt is good to 40*F. While that may be true for some, I can't take it below about 60*F with no additional layer's. Even then, I can probably only get an extra 5*F out of it before I get unavoidable CBS. I am a cold sleeper.
Better conservative than cold, IMO. If you don't know what will keep you warm, EN rating's are a good place to start.
Last edited by Boston; 01-03-2014 at 09:40.
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote
Bookmarks