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  1. #141
    Senior Member moski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frawg View Post
    It was hard to tell from the picture, but it looks like the little eye is the 'loose' end of the constrictor section -- is that correct? If so, that end needs to have a little tension on it. You can hang a pair of shoes from that eye, for example.
    Aha, i thought it was just a "handy to have" utility eye.
    Gonna try that right away!

    Quote Originally Posted by Frawg View Post
    I'm not sure where you are tying the knot, but if it's hard to undo it sounds like you're tying it on the working end of the constrictor. ... I use a rolling hitch, but I tie it in the loose end of the constrictor. Here's a pic where it's visible, but you have to zoom in to see it:
    Yep, tied my knots in the upper end.
    Gonna try to tie them in the loose end of the constrictor right away.

    Thanks a bunch!
    Moski, who no longer feels the Secret Ninja Ski emptiness..............
    B/C he got them now

  2. #142
    Senior Member Gailainne's Avatar
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    I was showing Tripitaka my UCR's at the BCUK moot this weekend, and he spotted that the loops weren't made with locked Brummels, I sketched up a rough diagram;


    Blue is what I perceive the Brummel to look like, the green is what the ship chandlers made for me, both had about an 8" bury.

    I haven't tried it in anger yet, perhaps this weekend, but with the interlock created with both ends of the rope passing thru each other, the chances of it coming undone would seem a lot less likely, what do you guys think ?

    Stephen

  3. #143
    Senior Member Frawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gailainne View Post
    ...Blue is what I perceive the Brummel to look like, the green is what the ship chandlers made for me, both had about an 8" bury.

    I haven't tried it in anger yet, perhaps this weekend, but with the interlock created with both ends of the rope passing thru each other, the chances of it coming undone would seem a lot less likely, what do you guys think ?

    Stephen
    Hi Stephen,

    The strength of the eye splice is in the bury -- that's the area that will be stressed when you try it "in anger"; tension on the outer sheath causes it to squeeze and grip the buried segment inside it. When there's little tension, there is little squeezing and consequently little gripping of the buried segment, which could then work loose and come undone. The lock prevents that from happening. Either one that you drew will accomplish that end.

    Note that in either case, according to the references I've seen, the bury should be whipped or lock stitched at the end to secure it. Whipping or lock stitching will secure the bury on its own, so it's not clear to me that the locks are really necessary. I've made eye splices both ways -- with & without locks -- but always with lock stitching. None of mine have failed.

    $.02
    - Frawg

    {generic tagline}

  4. #144
    Senior Member TiredFeet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gailainne View Post
    I was showing Tripitaka my UCR's at the BCUK moot this weekend, and he spotted that the loops weren't made with locked Brummels, I sketched up a rough diagram;


    Blue is what I perceive the Brummel to look like, the green is what the ship chandlers made for me, both had about an 8" bury.

    I haven't tried it in anger yet, perhaps this weekend, but with the interlock created with both ends of the rope passing thru each other, the chances of it coming undone would seem a lot less likely, what do you guys think ?

    Stephen
    As I understand it, the locked Brummel is the second illustration you drew.

    The Brummel is there simply to keep the bury from un-burying under low or no load conditions. It actually makes the splice weaker.

    The bury is where the strength of the splice is actually.

    If you skip the Brummel, and just make the bury you will have a stronger splice. You then have to stitch the bury to keep it from coming un-buried under low or no load conditions.

    It is my understanding that a stitched bury is stronger than a bury with a Brummel. Samson Rope's instructions for the eye splice with a stitched bury rate the splice at 90% to 100%. They rate the Whoopie sling with the Locked Brummel at 60%. I have seen other references that rate the Brummel lower than a plain bury also.

  5. #145
    Senior Member Gailainne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frawg View Post
    Hi Stephen,

    The strength of the eye splice is in the bury -- that's the area that will be stressed when you try it "in anger"; tension on the outer sheath causes it to squeeze and grip the buried segment inside it. When there's little tension, there is little squeezing and consequently little gripping of the buried segment, which could then work loose and come undone. The lock prevents that from happening. Either one that you drew will accomplish that end.

    Note that in either case, according to the references I've seen, the bury should be whipped or lock stitched at the end to secure it. Whipping or lock stitching will secure the bury on its own, so it's not clear to me that the locks are really necessary. I've made eye splices both ways -- with & without locks -- but always with lock stitching. None of mine have failed.

    $.02
    As you say its the friction of the bury in the Brummel plus the stitching that keeps it in place, however with the Chandler one, each line goes thru the other, stopping either from moving, if I'm right you wouldn't need the bury at all, that's just there to make things neat.

    <Shrug> best way is to test it . I'll make up another one from spare Amsteel that I have and do a little testing this weekend, should be interesting.

    Oh on a side note I showed the UCR to a couple of people at the Moot at the weekend, it generated a lot of interest including a guy who specialises in rope making/splicing (natural stuff) and he was generous enough not only to give me some tips, but to show the various tools he uses (mostly hand made) I was explaining the problem with burying the weave, and getting fine fibres caught etc. Bottom line one of the guys listening wants to try it himself so not only is he going to make a set of fids and needles for himself, he's making me a set as well

    Aren't people just bloody brilliant, so generous.

    Cheers

    Stephen

  6. #146
    Senior Member Gailainne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiredFeet View Post
    As I understand it, the locked Brummel is the second illustration you drew.

    The Brummel is there simply to keep the bury from un-burying under low or no load conditions. It actually makes the splice weaker.

    The bury is where the strength of the splice is actually.

    If you skip the Brummel, and just make the bury you will have a stronger splice. You then have to stitch the bury to keep it from coming un-buried under low or no load conditions.

    It is my understanding that a stitched bury is stronger than a bury with a Brummel. Samson Rope's instructions for the eye splice with a stitched bury rate the splice at 90% to 100%. They rate the Whoopie sling with the Locked Brummel at 60%. I have seen other references that rate the Brummel lower than a plain bury also.
    Ah interesting, so basically, if we take away the bury, we are back to a knot in essence, which weakens the rope. That's the first time I've seen anyone posting that a locked brummel weakens the rope that much, elsewhere I've seen written as little as a 2% drop in strength.

  7. #147
    Senior Member Frawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gailainne View Post
    As you say its the friction of the bury in the Brummel plus the stitching that keeps it in place, however with the Chandler one, each line goes thru the other, stopping either from moving, if I'm right you wouldn't need the bury at all, that's just there to make things neat.

    <Shrug> best way is to test it . I'll make up another one from spare Amsteel that I have and do a little testing this weekend, should be interesting.
    YMMV but I'd never try that, myself. Best of luck to you!

    Oh on a side note I showed the UCR to a couple of people at the Moot at the weekend, it generated a lot of interest including a guy who specialises in rope making/splicing (natural stuff) and he was generous enough not only to give me some tips, but to show the various tools he uses (mostly hand made) I was explaining the problem with burying the weave, and getting fine fibres caught etc. Bottom line one of the guys listening wants to try it himself so not only is he going to make a set of fids and needles for himself, he's making me a set as well

    Aren't people just bloody brilliant, so generous.

    Cheers

    Stephen
    Very cool, indeed!

    Cheers back atcha!
    - Frawg

    {generic tagline}

  8. #148
    Senior Member TiredFeet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gailainne View Post
    As you say its the friction of the bury in the Brummel plus the stitching that keeps it in place, however with the Chandler one, each line goes thru the other, stopping either from moving, if I'm right you wouldn't need the bury at all, that's just there to make things neat.

    <Shrug> best way is to test it . I'll make up another one from spare Amsteel that I have and do a little testing this weekend, should be interesting.

    Oh on a side note I showed the UCR to a couple of people at the Moot at the weekend, it generated a lot of interest including a guy who specialises in rope making/splicing (natural stuff) and he was generous enough not only to give me some tips, but to show the various tools he uses (mostly hand made) I was explaining the problem with burying the weave, and getting fine fibres caught etc. Bottom line one of the guys listening wants to try it himself so not only is he going to make a set of fids and needles for himself, he's making me a set as well

    Aren't people just bloody brilliant, so generous.

    Cheers

    Stephen
    If you want to test, then make sure you have plenty of cushioning !

    Do two tests:

    1. plain bury
    2. Brummel, weaving the ropes through each other, no bury.


    We've actually done a lot of testing of the first option.

    Never had a problem until we were taking the rope down and coiling it a lot. All that coiling, under no load, caused the bury to back out.

    Since then we have stitched the buries immediately after completing the bury.

  9. #149
    Senior Member gargoyle's Avatar
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    What are you using to stitch with? heavy thread or thin twine?? Just picked up a bunch of rope Tuesday and spent the night weaving up some whoopie and now you tell me its stronger without the locked section...
    Ambulo tua ambulo.

  10. #150
    Senior Member TiredFeet's Avatar
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    We just use the polyester thread we got on-line. It's rated at 11 lbs.

    I have heard of others using whipping twine, dental floss.

    I don't think the thread used for the lock stitching has to be too strong to keep the bury from coming un-buried under no load conditions. The thread isn't really carrying the load.

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