What % do you use for a kid soak? I _know_ that my mother, we're she still alive, had times when she would have answered "lethal"😀Originally Posted by Ratdog
What % do you use for a kid soak? I _know_ that my mother, we're she still alive, had times when she would have answered "lethal"😀
We just have the kids drink it, then we don't have to worry about them getting a skin reaction and to date not one of them have complained about ill effects....or anything else for that matter. It must be safe
I'd be interested to know where you get this idea and what basis in fact it has.
"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." Ralph Waldo Emerson
I would be too....I tend to think it isn't some magical molecule that "bonds" specifically to clothing fabric and knows " oh this is rain ...better stay put on this shirt".
Ran across this thread while looking for some practical advice on soaking my hammock (IE spray vs soak), but since it seems pretty fresh, I thought I'd chime in on safety. I did quite a lot of research before I bought my first batch last year, and as near as I can tell this stuff is basically harmless for people. Some people might get a rash from direct skin use, though that's as likely to be from the "inert" ingredients as the permethrin itself, and in any case there's no point in applying it to your skin since it's so quickly broken down by human biochemistry. A few posts up, someone refers to it as a neurotoxin, but as far as I can tell there's no evidence that's true, at least in humans, in anything like a normal dosage. (Likely he just meant something along the lines of "anything is poisonous in a high enough dose".) If you're interested, the best single thing I found summing up the toxicology was the Army study from when they were evaluating it for use on uniforms. You can read it here:
http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=9274
They approach it from a lot of different angles, and each chapter starts off with an abstract, so I'd definitely recommend checking it out. It's from 1994, but I didn't find any newer research with significant contradictions. One memorable section from the discussion on neurotoxicity discusses rat studies where they were feeding rats dosages between 6,000-9,000mg/kg a day, and managed to kill off a majority of the rats after 2 weeks. An equivalent dosage for a 160lb human would be drinking between 12.4-18.6 fl oz of 100% permethrin every day for 2 weeks.
I have used the spray products for several years for treating my turkey hunting camo clothing. Last year I switched over to diluting the concentrate and soaking the clothes in it. I have had no ticks or crawling bugs on me at all since using these products. One tip I would offer if you are soaking your stuff. After soaking thoroughly, take the fabric and spread it out flat on a sheet of plastic (garbage bags work fine) in a breezy, shaded location. Turn the fabric over every so often to help in the drying. Allowing it to dry flat like this eliminates the likelihood of the Permethrine gravitating to one end of the fabric, effectively overloading one end and draining the other as it would if you were to simply hang it up somewhere.
Not to be contrary, as this is a great discussion and should be talked about. It is a chemical, and better to be safe than sorry makes sense...BUT...
It doesn’t have to be magic or "know" the difference between items, such as clothing, that it bonds to. First, it doesn’t just bond to just clothing, it bonds to anything that is of a porous material. Wood, fabric, etc... It is the nature of the chemical. Like i analogized earlier...think oil based STAIN, not water based paint. It’s not magic that stain…stains. It is not magic that Permethrin bonds at a molecular level to an item.
Chemicals have a life span, or activity life. Although the chemical, at a very slow and low rate will leech away from the material it is bonded to, it does not do this at a rapid rate when added to water...meaning it does not resolve in water. Ie, most clothes coloring is made from chemicals that are not water "resolvable" or better known as water soluble. It is also not air soluble, meaning it does not dissolve in air and become a vapor or mist. Unfortunately for bugs, this chemical is transferred by touch, in a super small dose. But that dose is extremely hazardous to a bugs chemical makeup.
The above post is correct, this is a neurotoxin, but not in humans....it is to most bugs and also cats. However it only affects cats in a lethal does, meaning it would need to be ingested in the liquid form either through the skin or the mouth. While a human can metabolize this liquid very very quickly, for some reason cats cannot. They are not so effected by this, like a bug, that it effects them after it dries, but it will in the liquid form.
Again, it’s not Magic. A great example of a chemical being safe for human use but bad for some species is the chemical "eucalyptus". This is not only safe to humans (unless they have an allergy to it) but it is used in medical treatments. It is the "medicine" smell from many cough drops, vicks vapor rubs, etc... BUT, if you spray this around a bird...it will be deader than a gun control bill in Texas. For some reason birds cannot metabolize this chemical in the same way every other creature on the planet can.
Permethrin is the same thing...it is only harmful to Bugs (and cats) and is a very effective killer of these little critters. I suppose if you drank eucalyptus it would be bad for you, and somewhere at a picnic someone could have had a weird reaction to it...but in general it is not only safe but has great human uses.
Now Lyme disease on the other hand…is NOT so good for you, nor are several other insect spread diseases. I would guess that there are more cases of infection from scratching a bug bite than there are cases of permethrin related illness.
My info comes simply from using common sense and also reading the RED fact sheet at the EPA website, medline site, The Mayo Clinic Medical Information library, RXlist.com, Cornwell universities study on this chemical and simply reading several sites that talk about its use.
With that said...like all of these types of chmicals..the other 99.5% is what we dont know much about...from brand to brand.
Peace out my friends.
Great explanation SirLips.
Contrarian is good IMO....
Definitely a good explanation....you seem very knowledgeable.
I'm still weary though....
I just cant trust big business or thier scientists or the studies funded by them, to look out for anyone but themselves and their bottom line.
Although I could be wrong about it in this case.
i try to remain neutral.
That said I just got 2 24ounce bottles from sawyer through amazon on sale after already going through 24 ounces this year.
I HATE ticks, lymes disease and the other new diseases scare me enough to suck it up.
i treat it like I'm diffusing a bomb though.
Last edited by ADKrella; 07-23-2014 at 22:44.
Using the soak method, how long do you leave it in the solution and how long does it usually take to dry when lying it out flat? I was hoping to get some of the bigger equipment done today, but it's raining and that may add a bit to the drying time. Also, thoughts on spraying/soaking a dog's hiking pack?
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