Am I being smart or just cheap and wrong? Skipping the quilts...

[SilvrSurfr]

Maybe a new hammock design that incorporates down-fill right into the hammock itself or even just a system that gets a tighter,easier to setup or more airtight fit. who knows? i think i may have even read someone has started developing or even producing something along those lines. Cant remember who it was....

Several people are enamored with attaching the down insulation to the hammock: Insulhammock, fireinmybone's Bonefire insulated hammock, maybe others. However, I see this to be, not an innovation, but merely tinkering with the basic components of a hammock sleep system - what I call the Swiss Army knife approach. It's like a siren song to some folks - they can't resist. What if I combined the tarp with the hammock with a bugnet? Check out threads on the Zeppelin design - hasn't really taken the commercial world by storm. There's also the Nube system that combines bugnet and tarp.

And then there are products that are essentially bivies that hang from trees, 'cause some people like bivies. Personally, I prefer a modular approach. I have more hammocks than tarps or quilts, so I want my tarps/quilts independent of the hammock. Same with bugnets - I just don't care for integrated bugnets 'cause a) I'm never going to use my hammock as a bivy, and b) most of my camping is done in non-bug season so I don't want to carry a bugnet when there are no bugs; and c) I'm too claustrophobic for zippers.

I'm completely sold on the under quilt half but I will have to sleep on the top insulation some more.

Most sleeping bags work well as topquilts, but are heavier than their TQ breathren because of the zipper, and the insulation on the bottom which is there for you to compress and render useless. You may never feel the need to upgrade to a TQ.

As far as the piney's, the more I learn, the more I wonder if I'm not just a displaced Piney myself...

I'm from Alabama; we're called rednecks. New Hampshire has rednecks too - they call them woodboogers. In NJ, they're pineys. The distinguishing feature of pineys, from any other redneck, is that pineys tend to make their campfires out of pallets!

[sargevining]

Woodboogers must be a term invented since 1975, I never heard it growing up. Heard of "downeasters" but never wood boogers.

[BillyBob58]

I'm coming to the conclusion that this is probably close the truth for me with one exception. I'm noticing that before I make a big purchase anymore, I like to play devils advocate more than try and sell myself on it as I have in the past.(Probably the result of a few regrettable choices on outdoor gear).

Devil's advocate can be a good approach, and while you advocate for the devil you end up getting lots of good, and hopefully useful, info as you already have here.

I also partly just want to confirm that the whole underquilt idea isnt just a highly specialized fad resulting from the popularity of hammocks all of the sudden. People sometimes like to buy the cool new gear and spend money on their hobby just for the sake of doing so.

Very true. I have to be careful because I have that tendency my own self. Then again, as I have so oft had to remind my wife, when it comes to hobbies, this one aint much $ wise. Plus, I have never seen one where it was any easier to get a good hunk of your money back if you change your mind. The UQs are very specialized, and a fad, but it's a fad that seems to be sticking and has been very popular for at least 8 years now, and more popular every year seems to me.

I don't mind spending the money, long as I won't regret it. As was mentioned above, a good pad and bag does cost as much as a quilt system.

Not the pad part, depending on what you mean by "good". And if you mean "good for the ground". All you need out of a hammock pad is insulation, you don't need the cushioning unless you are on the ground. So a cheap WM Blue pad, alone or stacked, can insulate quite impressively. Even the higher quality CCF will not approach a down UQ in price, plus they are wind proof and water proof, which means you won't have to spend more money and weight to guarantee that with an UQ protector and/or larger tarp. Has Ducttape posted on this thread? If mem serves, he likes UQs in the not so cold weather but prefers his CCF pads in severe cold, down to at least minus 22F last I heard. You also don't have to worry about any pesky condensation buildup inside the quilt( talk about devils advocate! That's me for the moment!) on longer, very cold trips. All of this for a much lower price, and you are still good for the ground. But, depending on which hammock is used and depending on the person, comfort remains the huge advantage of UQs or pods or HHSSs compared to a pad, just as price and versatility is for the pad. But, there are some who argue that a pad slipped into the pad pocket of a JRB bridge actually improves comfort, and it certainly is way more comfy ( IMO ) than a pad in any other hammock. I believe DuctTape is plenty comfy with his pads. Except with bridge hammocks, I have mostly been unhappy trying to use a pad in a hammock. One exception was years ago, A single layer Speer hammock, a full length TR Ridgerest with an TR UL torso pad stacked inside a Speer SPE. It was 18F, cold for down here. It was my 1st time winter hammock camping where I called myself toasty, so toasty that I was for the 1st time able to use my bag as a TQ rather than being zipped up inside it. I was pretty comfy though maybe not quite as comfy as with no pad, and do not remember any condensation problems.

My concern is more a matter of knowing im getting something worthwhile for the money and that I would be still using it in 5-10 years. I leaned toward the pad/bag system because it guaranteed that through versatility and alternate use if not pure functionality for hammock camping. I see alot more people are pushing for the bottom quilt than the top quilt. Is it safe to say that the downfill sleeping bag may still be as good of an option for top insulation since it is so similar to the top quilt in performance but also more versatile?

Again, strictly IMO, yes if weight and bulk are not important to you and with a couple of caveats. The big advantage for the weight/bulk conscious among us ( probably most of us) is that the TQ is only the top layer of a sleeping bag(plus a little bit more). So you don't have to carry or pack the bottom layer, which if it is 800 FP down will be flattened by your weight anyway providing no insulation. And with a tQ, if it is roomy enough, you can use it on the ground just like a bag, since the pad provides your ground insulation. But a bag can make just a good a quilt as a dedicated TQ. Maybe even better because with more width, you can tuck it real good to avoid drafts. But the hood might get in the way of getting a good seal around your shoulders/neck. Which you must have or you will be cold. And an UQ might have a snap which allows you to secure it behind your neck, again to minimize drafts. Then again, if drafts prove to be a big problem- and it does for some- you can always get inside your bag and close up the neck collar and hood. That is not as comfy in a hammock, but it is draft proof and warm. So is a Pea Pod, but it is just as comfy as a TQ/UQ. But the main advantage of the dedicated TQ over bag as TQ is weight and bulk. For some, that is very important, but not for all.

Excellent point regarding the temp rating of a pad on the ground vs in a hammock. Convection is a factor there.

But does it not apply equally to an UQ, compared to our past experiences in a tent on the ground? You are going to need a thicker layer of UQ to make up for the fact that cold air can be blowing under your UQ, and the fact that the air can be a lot colder than the ground or snow that a pad normally is insulating you from. And the quilt will probably not be wind proof, thus this might need to be dealt with, but the pad is already wind and waterproof. Dang, again, talk about Devil's advocate! And this DA has UQs, TQs down and synthetic, Pea Pod, HH Super Shelters, and has not slept on a pad in many years! ( sole exception: in the summer time down south, using neither pad nor UQ, sleeping in a bridge hammock beside a windy lake, and occasionally found I had a cold back about 0500. Just slip a 20" wide torso length piece of WM blue pad into the JRB pad pocket, instant toast until get up time and still plenty comfy)

So this may be a lot of DA, but still, bottom line, you can be as warm as you need to be with a thick enough CCF pad for very little money, much less than a down UQ. But, most folks- with a few exception plus some more JRB BMBH users) do not find this near as comfy, and some have bad sweat/condensation problems. Which group do you fit into?

Same with TQs: if you can control drafts and make up for no hood, a TQ can be just as warm as a bag of the same thickness, and will be lighter and less bulky.

Do you already have your bag? Is it a roomy bag with a full length zipper? If so, and the money is the main thing, have you considered using your bag as a pod, like Shug does in the above linked minus 40 trip? It is a learning curve and might require a mod or 2, but can work extremely well. For that matter, I like commercial Pea Pods, which are just huge sleeping bags designed to wrap around a hammock from head to toe. Bomb proof in my experience. Lot's of ways to go!

[The Tree Frog]

Devils advocate works well, as it did here. Slippery slope also works here.

I have a Big Agnes Q-Core insulated air pad and Lost Ranger down bag. I like to use it on occasion in my hammock. Other times I use the bag, which has no under insulation, with my full length AHE New River under quilt. I also have a Jarbidge which is three quarter that I just bought for $75 bucks! They are both synthetic.

You will eventually have several options for different seasons or moods....if you stick with it. The slippery slope will cause me to buy a down UQ eventually, but I will delay buying a TQ.

One final piece of advice...DO NOT go to any group hangs or you will suffer the same fate as the rest of us and gracefully, silently slip down that slippery slope as well!

[Ratdog]

I'm experimenting with an Apex Climashield lined hammock but the biggest concern I have is venting and compression of insulation. WV went to some pretty elaborate measures to fit the insulation to one of his hammocks, it seems to be more trouble than it is worth. I can see using differentially cut baffles with down but even then I wonder about fabric stretch. MedicineMan has given some positive reviews to the insulhammock but I wonder how it will work in sub zero temps when it really matters.

No need to worry about pineys too much. Most of the jokes and warnings about pineys come from the pineys themselves. I'll never forget my first hammock camping trip to the Pine Barrens: I drove into the sugar sand in a rental car. In the process of getting the car out of the sand, we ripped the front bumper off the rental car (I had no insurance). Suddenly a piney drove up in a pick-up truck, pulled a cordless drill out of the back, and had my bumper on in less than 15 minutes.

We have a group hang at Stokes State Forest in October.

https://www.hammockforums.net/forum/...s+state+forest

Nah, Pineys don't joke much about themselves, it's the people around them that talk about stuff. Though there is the occasional good natured piney, most remind me of farmers, not much to say, listen careful and don't have much time for folks that yammer on and don't trust people unless they know the family. But when you're out in the woods, yeah a piney will lend a hand with a practical solution to any immediate problem.

I spend a lot of time in the Pine Barrens, but I guess I'm not a Piney 'cause I don't know where ALL the bodies are buried.

“One day I was at the counter and one of the old-timers was there. Somebody came in lost and I told them where to go. I drew them a map and they went out, and this man said to me, ‘You’re never going to be a Piney.’ I said, ‘Why not?’ He said, ‘Piney would’ve sent him in the opposite direction.’”

“To be a real Piney here, you have to be here for at least four generations,” says Schmidt. “The rest will always be newcomers. The only reason I think I was accepted was [because] I restored the town monument and that gave me big points.”

-Marilyn Schmidt, Owner of Buzby's aka Chatsworth General Store, Chatsworth NJ

So, restore a monument buys you something with the locals but in old Mrs Schmidt's eyes, going back 4 generations is what it takes and I actually think that's being a little generous. When we go visit "the gang" in cemeteries around the Pines, we still tell stories of the family members going back to the late 1600's, early 1700's. And that's why I chuckle a little when someone who moved to Tabernacle 10 years ago and drives a beat up jeep thinks they're a piney.

There will be a bunch of hangs in the Pine Barrens this fall and winter, come on out, witness a ritual pallet burning and be serenaded by the whippoorwills, always a good time and these days, really good food as well.

[sliver]

I think it's wise of you to consider carefully before you commit a lot of money. I have tried and own all of the options you're considering. Here are some thoughts on your quandary:

One configuration that's growing on me is using a pad/TQ combination on the ground. Synthetic and down insulation lose a lot of their R-value when compressed. Since down is a lot more compressible, it loses most of its insulation value when underneath you. A pad/TQ combination solves that problem and may give you the best warmth to weight ratio. The R-value of any insulation essentially (meaning this is not the whole story) boils down to the amount of air you are able to trap/warm between your body and what's cold (air or ground).

Synthetic is a lot cheaper than down, compresses less, and doesn't lose as much R-value when wet. If you aren't too concerned with bulk/weight, consider getting synthetic insulation. An Everest Mummy +5* synthetic bag is $25. If you're not sure if you like synthetic insulation or not, it's only going to cost you $25 to find out.

You can get an Ozark Trail 32* down bag for around $80. That, in conjunction with a DIY down 20* 3/4 length UQ I bought used on HF, is what I use if it's going to get no colder than 32*.

A 6ft long double layer of Reflectix taped together is going to cost about $5. That, in conjunction with the Everest Mummy, will easily take you down to around 45*. It's a bit bulky but it's hard to think of a cheaper combination. It works on the ground and in a hammock.

Note that if you add a reasonably good air pad to the cheapest option listed above, it's going to cost you around $100. At that point, you have only spent around $125 and you're pretty close to being able handle down to freezing - both in a hammock and on the ground. That's a pretty robust, inexpensive combination.

In order to use an air pad in a hammock, you will find that you can only inflate it about half way. That's going to decrease the R-value. Test it and you'll see. When you do, you'll begin to understand why most people end up getting a down UQ. If you want cheap, do what I did and get a used DIY 20* 3/4 length UQ. Then, you can bring both the UQ and the pad since the UQ will compress down to slightly bigger than the size of a softball and doesn't weigh very much.

What I'm suggesting here is, rather than over think it, start with some of these cheap options and see if they work for you. Part of the fun is figuring things out as you go along. Don't commit a lot of money until you have built up your experience and are confident that you understand what you really need.

My strategy is to try things out first in my backyard, then in the field. If something doesn't work, I can always bail out and not have a miserable night. The downside of this strategy is that I don't have a lot of stories about how miserable I was because some piece of equipment didn't work out like I thought it would. But hey, that's my thing. As the infamous Shug (who is strange in all of the right ways) says, "Hike your own hike." If hangin' your toes over the edge is what gets you amped, why you just go with your bad self. Get pix/video and post it.

HTH

[Bannerstone]

Here's the thing, you really can't choose something that you don't know about.

If you're serious about hammock camping, go and find out about quilts and pads first hand then make your decision.

Sleeping on a pad has some down sides too, trapped perspiration being a big one.

David

[Bstomper]

Same as what they said. I just started this hammocking thing so I can't speak with experience on it but I have slept in my hammock with a thermorest pad. As stated above you will have to let out most of the air to get it to feel and fit comfortably. I put the pad in, got in and released the air until it quit hissing out the valve, then tightened the valve. It was not bad for comfort but i am sure it dramaticly decreased the R value. I have learned a long time ago to get the stuff that is designed for the job, beit recreational equipment, tools or what have you. It takes alot of the frustration out of it and makes the joys of the experience alot more enjoyable. I will do what I have to do for this year with my ground dwelling equipment because I have spent enough money on other things but I will get a proper underquilt for next year. I have a buddy that is fine fiddling around with make shift stuff instead of buying the proper stuff and thats good for him....me....I don't have the patience for it. Good luck with what ever you decide

[Gruxxx]

I started hammocking with the pad and sleeping bag that I already owned, but after a year, I made the leap to quilts and now have much more warmth and comfort. Here's what I found. Pads shift around, are fidgety, and don't provide near the bottom coverage as an underquilt. I always had a cold spot. Sleeping bags are a royal pain to wriggle into while in a hammock. They're a little easier to get into if you stand in one and zip partially up, then sit in the hammock and zip up the rest of the way. Major hassle, no matter how you cut it.

If you have an underquilt, on the other hand, a sleeping bag works just fine as a top quilt if you zip up the foot box a couple of feet and just pull the bag up like a top quilt. They feel annoyingly bulky like that, as if you're drowning in a sea of fabric, but they're warm and still easy to make do.

As far as versatility, the underquilt is the only piece of gear that won't serve double duty on the ground. That can be remedied by keeping a cheap pad for those times when you need to be on the ground.

Having tried a few quilts, I have a couple of suggestions if you go that route. A wide underquilt will cradle you the most and take the least amount of fidgeting to keep good coverage from your feet to your shoulders. A good UQ suspension system (with primary/secondary) will keep the UQ in place and the tightest to your backside, which will keep you the warmest. On a top quilt, make sure to get one long enough so your feet aren't crammed in the least, and that allows some extra fabric to poof up beneath your neck to provide more warmth and seal off drafts.

Finally, on the inflatable pad thing, I have to say that I've never owned an inflatable "anything" that didn't leak sooner or later...usually sooner, and often along a seam or a valve or a textured area of fabric that made an effective repair impossible. (That goes double for inflatable sleeping pads!) Anymore, I won't buy anything that is inflatable if there are alternatives. The one exception are the floatation bags for my sea kayaks, since there is really no practical alternative...and yes, one of them leaks.