Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 11
  1. #1
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Somewhere over the rainbow
    Hammock
    Sold
    Insulation
    Varies
    Suspension
    Depends
    Posts
    2,099

    Definitions for Beginners

    I was looking for a simple definition of fabrics my 13 year old helper might encounter, here is what I found.

    I was recently doing a search on a easy to understand definition of |"denier" and also a description of types of fabric. Here is what I found. Sorry I am sure I have not formated this correctly, I apologize.

    "The weight of tent fabrics is expressed in denier (D), a measurement of a yarn's weight (in grams) based on a 9,000-meter (5.6-mile) length of that yarn. (Why this length is used is a mystery to us.) Higher numbers indicate coarser, more rugged fabric; lower numbers reflect a lighter, finer material.al."

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramblinrev View Post
    D = denier which is a measure of the thread and therefore weave density. The higher the number the thick the thread strand and so the denser and "nobby" the weave. The denser the weave and the bigger the thread the more substantial the fabric. Pack cloth (or nylon canvas) is a higher Denier than ripstop.
    Rev sums it up pretty well.

    Generally speaking, these are common conversions when talking weights and denier:

    200d = 4.0oz
    70d = 1.9oz
    30d = 1.1oz

    Ripstop has the grids in it, to stop rips from continuing once they start. It does a fair job of it. Ripstop can be soft or firm, depending on many factors. Ripstop comes in many weights / deniers - but is most commonly found in 1.1 and 1.9oz.

    Taffeta does not have grid pattern like ripstop. It tends to be a bit more abrasion resistant, where ripstop is more tear resistant. Taffeta does not do well with tears. It also can be soft or firm - generally it's softer than ripstop. Taffeta comes in many weights / deniers - also most commonly found in 1.1 and 1.9oz.

    Oxford is like Taffeta on steroids. It's just a much more rugged cloth, and due to the higher denier, is not as comfortable against the skin. OWF says it well - Oxford is ideal where Packcloth would be used, but lighter weight is preferred. Oxford is almost always 200/210 denier.

    Hope that helps a bit. Fabric is a confusing animal and all of this that I mentioned is usually the case - there are many many variations from the norm.

  2. #2
    New Member Wallyrob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Jefferson, Georgia
    Hammock
    Hennessy Explorer Deluxe Zip
    Insulation
    HG Incubator 40*
    Suspension
    DIY Whoopie Sling
    Posts
    45
    Images
    1
    Great info. Thank you Mr. Fish.
    Last edited by Wallyrob; 10-02-2014 at 13:38. Reason: edit
    -No man is above the law and no man is below the law, nor do we ask his permission when we require him to obey it.

    Theodore Roosevelt, 1903

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Hammock
    WB XLC
    Tarp
    WB SuperFly
    Insulation
    HG 20 Inc/Burrow
    Posts
    839
    Images
    5
    Super helpful post IRONFISH45. A comprehensive summary of fabric information would make a good sticky for us DIY beginners. This is a great start at that.

    Brainstorming tips/additions that could flesh it out a little more if we wanted it to be a more comprehensive reference (in no particular order):

    Mention the weight rating of fabrics (1.1oz) is based on a square yard (took me a while to figure that out), and that can be used to estimate final project weight.
    Further description of what fabrics suit what projects based on their properties (e.g. best suited for hammock, best suited for tarp, best suited for UQ/TQ, UQP, pack, etc.)
    Waterproofing vs DWR in fabrics (i.e. mention of silnylon, treated/treating fabrics)
    Different types/styles of ripstop
    Common/average hammock weight ratings associated with the different fabric types
    The affect of stretch on fabric
    The "feel" of the different fabrics on the skin
    Other types of fabric than nylon (e.g. polycro, cuban, etc.) and their uses
    What types of needle/thread should be used with each fabric
    Taping vs sewing

    I'm sure I'm missing a lot of the basics in that list since I've just begun to scratch the surface of DIY. I don't know enough about the subject now to expound much on the stuff I listed above, but I sure know a single post covering those topics would be of great interest to me and others as we look at DIY projects. Maybe something like this exists out there already and I just haven't found it?

    Thanks for this as-is though, it's helpful even if it doesn't go any further than this!

  4. #4
    Banned
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Bellingham, WA
    Posts
    22
    Thank you very much... I am newb and this will help out a lot!

  5. #5
    Senior Member Ramblinrev's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Milton, PA
    Hammock
    Hennessey Explorer Ultralight
    Tarp
    Hennessey Hex
    Insulation
    HH Super Shelter
    Suspension
    ring buckle
    Posts
    7,945
    Images
    101
    Quote Originally Posted by DanglingModifier View Post
    Super helpful post IRONFISH45. A comprehensive summary of fabric information would make a good sticky for us DIY beginners. This is a great start at that.

    Brainstorming tips/additions that could flesh it out a little more if we wanted it to be a more comprehensive reference (in no particular order):

    Mention the weight rating of fabrics (1.1oz) is based on a square yard (took me a while to figure that out), and that can be used to estimate final project weight.
    Further description of what fabrics suit what projects based on their properties (e.g. best suited for hammock, best suited for tarp, best suited for UQ/TQ, UQP, pack, etc.)
    Waterproofing vs DWR in fabrics (i.e. mention of silnylon, treated/treating fabrics)
    Different types/styles of ripstop
    Common/average hammock weight ratings associated with the different fabric types
    The affect of stretch on fabric
    The "feel" of the different fabrics on the skin
    Other types of fabric than nylon (e.g. polycro, cuban, etc.) and their uses
    What types of needle/thread should be used with each fabric
    Taping vs sewing

    I'm sure I'm missing a lot of the basics in that list since I've just begun to scratch the surface of DIY. I don't know enough about the subject now to expound much on the stuff I listed above, but I sure know a single post covering those topics would be of great interest to me and others as we look at DIY projects. Maybe something like this exists out there already and I just haven't found it?

    Thanks for this as-is though, it's helpful even if it doesn't go any further than this!

    So much of what you have listed there is subjective that it is very difficult to come up with a "definitive" answer. For gear making the biggest issues revolve around weight vs durability and those are totally subjective to the designer/builder. Lighter weight fabrics are _generally_ less durable than heavier weight. But of course heavier weight fabrics weigh more. Gear making relies mostly on synthetic fabrics as they are _generally_ less maintenance intensive than natural fibers. Natural fibers are _generally_ subject to organic decomposition from molds and mildews where as synthetic fibers are subject to Ultraviolet light degradation. Shade from the sun is easier to ensure than regulated humidity.

    Being a weave pattern, ripstop can be found in any fiber content, at least in theory. Nylon is the most common. Polyester is available if you look hard enough. There is no reason other fibers could not be woven into ripstop but the call for them is probably not commercially viable.

    Waterproofing methods are extensively covered in appropriate forums. I would think the discussions on tarps would be fruitful fields to find those discussions.

    Stretch is really difficult to discuss because each fiber responds a little differently. Woven fabrics _genenrally_ don't stretch except on the bias (diagonal to the weave) while knits _generally_ stretch regardless of the grain (direction of the threads). BUT some woven fabrics are made with lycra (bathing suits, lingere etc) and stretch quite nicely in either 2 or four directions depending on the relative weave pattern and fiber content.

    The feel of fabrics is easy. Go into a fabric store and feel them. What feels good to you may drive me bonkers.

    Needles are designed for different purposes. If you get really OCD you can drive yourself nuts matching thread to needle size. Nothing wrong with that, but I find for normal home DIY purposes it makes little difference. Needle points DO make a difference. Sharps are just that. They are used for woven fabrics. The larger the needle size the stronger the needle. Heavy weight and high density fabrics need a bigger needle. Ball Point needles are used for knits. They are inefficient in woven fabrics and can lead to problems like forcing the fabric into the throat plate of the sewing machine. A situation to be avoided. Universal points are an attempt to be all things to all stitchers. They are readily available and work well for most fabrics but do not excel in any situation. Denim needles are heavy duty sharps and are over kill for light fabrics. Under no circumstances should you use leather needles for anything but leather and heavy duty non woven materials like vinyl. They have blades that run along the shaft to cut the base material. They work well for their appropriate uses but will weaken wovens and destroy knits.

    Beyond that rather unhelpful set of generalizations, IMO your best course of action is hands on discussion of fabrics with knowledgeable fabric store clerks. Some of this you simply have to experience. Reading summaries will only take you so far.
    Last edited by Ramblinrev; 10-02-2014 at 15:27.
    I may be slow... But I sure am gimpy.

    "Bless you child, when you set out to thread a needle don't hold the thread still and fetch the needle up to it; hold the needle still and poke the thread at it; that's the way a woman most always does, but a man always does t'other way."
    Mrs. Loftus to Huck Finn

    We Don't Sew... We Make Gear! video series

    Important thread injector guidelines especially for Newbies

    Bobbin Tension - A Personal Viewpoint

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Hammock
    WB XLC
    Tarp
    WB SuperFly
    Insulation
    HG 20 Inc/Burrow
    Posts
    839
    Images
    5
    Quote Originally Posted by Ramblinrev View Post
    So much of what you have listed there is subjective that it is very difficult to come up with a "definitive" answer.
    Rev, I think you might be over thinking my proposition because you've got well more than beginner experience in this department. IRONFISH45 used the subject of "definitions for beginners", and then he dropped about a half dozen concise and very valuable definitions or descriptions. I liked it. More of the same, in the same place, could provide a great summary on fabric and techniques for people new to the hobby. In that context I think generalizations would be helpful to someone starting out, as would basic descriptions and properties of alternative synthetic fabrics to nylon. Those self-proclaimed "unhelpful" generalizations that followed in your post really ARE helpful to me and others. Newbies WANT generalizations.

    Just like

    FIBER | DENIER | WEIGHT/YD | COMMON USES
    Nylon | 200d | 4.0oz | Packs, Camp chairs

    provides a bit more usable information at a glance to someone starting out than:

    200d = 4.0oz

    Perhaps some of my brainstorming ideas fell too far into the subjective category, but I think there are lots of objective suggestions in there too, or items for which there is a common consensus. I was shooting for the idea of breadth more than depth; a broader resource for new DIY people to reference to help zero in on the right fabrics or techniques for the project. The 1000s of other posts answering very specific questions could fill in the rest of the blanks.

  7. #7
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Somewhere over the rainbow
    Hammock
    Sold
    Insulation
    Varies
    Suspension
    Depends
    Posts
    2,099
    Too much information in the beginning "Baffles Brains". Once the very basic building blocks are in place interested people will build on their knowledge. Ramblinrev is very knowledgeable and has shared his knowledge to help new thread injector's learn about the assorted options available.

    I just wanted to post a quick no frills definitions for beginners. I wanted my helper to understand the very basics, a place to start and grow from.

    I believe in keep it simple when being introduced to new terms and concepts. I hate to see people develope glazed over eyes when having something explained.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Ramblinrev's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Milton, PA
    Hammock
    Hennessey Explorer Ultralight
    Tarp
    Hennessey Hex
    Insulation
    HH Super Shelter
    Suspension
    ring buckle
    Posts
    7,945
    Images
    101
    Quote Originally Posted by DanglingModifier View Post
    FIBER | DENIER | WEIGHT/YD | COMMON USES
    Nylon | 200d | 4.0oz | Packs, Camp chairs

    provides a bit more usable information at a glance to someone starting out than:

    200d = 4.0oz
    You have provided an absolutely excellent case to prove the point I was making. It may have been unintended, but I'll jump on it anyway.

    I would never use 200D fabric for camp chairs. Part of that is because I'm a lard butt and I don't trust 200D fabric to take the prolonged _concentrated_ pressure of my 275# carcass on the small seat of a camp chair. I think any chairs I have for camp purposes are at least 600D. I will occasionally use my hammock as a seat and it is more lightweight, but the gathering of the fabric and the sheer expanse of fabric helps spreads the load. The pack I use is a 600D fabric which most folks would refuse to even carry but I am tough on my gear. I fall a lot and need a pack that is bombproof. Some folks in the UL movement would not use anything heavier than 70D. Many would go even lighter. So to give that kind of guidance to some one is a direction I am simply unwilling to go. I am NOT saying to you that 200D fabric is not suitable for a camp chair. I am saying _I_ do not find it appropriate. So make your chair out of 200D and relax with confidence. I'm fine with that. But YOU made that decision. Not some chart that an "expert" on HF put up. As you get to know fabrics from hands on experience you will be better able to judge what you are willing to trust and what makes your skin crawl. That's where the subjectivity comes in. And that is why I responded the way I did. I want your body in your hands. Not some distant "guru" you have never met. That's the purpose behind the group hangs. You can learn from first hand experience which is the best teacher IMO.

    Edit: One excellent approach, which I have used myself on many occasion, is to research what the commercial manufacturers are using for the products they are selling that you want adapt. The work is all done for you there and the personal knowledge you glean from that research goes a long way in helping to frame your reference points.
    Last edited by Ramblinrev; 10-03-2014 at 10:54.
    I may be slow... But I sure am gimpy.

    "Bless you child, when you set out to thread a needle don't hold the thread still and fetch the needle up to it; hold the needle still and poke the thread at it; that's the way a woman most always does, but a man always does t'other way."
    Mrs. Loftus to Huck Finn

    We Don't Sew... We Make Gear! video series

    Important thread injector guidelines especially for Newbies

    Bobbin Tension - A Personal Viewpoint

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Hammock
    WB XLC
    Tarp
    WB SuperFly
    Insulation
    HG 20 Inc/Burrow
    Posts
    839
    Images
    5
    I'll stick my tail between my legs and defer to the judgement of those more experienced than I am on this one, but I can't help but think of it as a lost opportunity.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Ramblinrev's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Milton, PA
    Hammock
    Hennessey Explorer Ultralight
    Tarp
    Hennessey Hex
    Insulation
    HH Super Shelter
    Suspension
    ring buckle
    Posts
    7,945
    Images
    101
    Quote Originally Posted by DanglingModifier View Post
    I'll stick my tail between my legs and defer to the judgement of those more experienced than I am on this one, but I can't help but think of it as a lost opportunity.
    That was hardly the point of my posts. The quest for knowledge and information is never something that needs a tail-tuck response. You are not the first to try and put this kind of list together. Nor will you be the last. If this is important to you then I would encourage you to pursue such a list or chart and post it here for folks to respond to. Just because it hasn't been developed before does not mean it should not exist. You will likely find one of two results. You will come up with a suitable and appropriate reference for all to share. Or you will come to understand the difficulties behind the endeavor. In either event, the effort will inform your own growth and may assist others. As you have pointed out to me, I am not a newbie in this and so I find myself hemmed in by my own preconceptions. A fresh set of eyes and minds may indeed find a way to meet the proposed result. Good luck to you.
    I may be slow... But I sure am gimpy.

    "Bless you child, when you set out to thread a needle don't hold the thread still and fetch the needle up to it; hold the needle still and poke the thread at it; that's the way a woman most always does, but a man always does t'other way."
    Mrs. Loftus to Huck Finn

    We Don't Sew... We Make Gear! video series

    Important thread injector guidelines especially for Newbies

    Bobbin Tension - A Personal Viewpoint

  • + New Posts
  • Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

    Similar Threads

    1. What are some good Thread Injector projects for beginners?
      By Ricky&Jack in forum Do-It-Yourself (DIY)
      Replies: 3
      Last Post: 06-02-2014, 18:54
    2. Christmas deal espcially for beginners :)
      By mountainhanger in forum Other Vendors and Services
      Replies: 0
      Last Post: 12-03-2013, 09:48
    3. Good beginners hammock?
      By jr05 in forum General Hammock Talk
      Replies: 48
      Last Post: 04-06-2007, 11:14

    Bookmarks

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •