Freezing Temps and Open Cell Foam

**CITC** · 10-20-2009, 19:47

Alright guys. I can tell that you have not had any experience with this system, nor do you know what the material costs are. That's okay. I'm here to answer questions and hopefully straighten out some misconceptions.

I'll take them one at a time.

**CITC** · 10-20-2009, 19:49

Originally Posted by Mustardman

I'm incredibly skeptical of any sleep system that provides no specifications for packed size or weight. I'll let someone else be the first to try this one out

I can't give a packed weight or size as these bags are build custom to the person ordering them. There is no standard size. Your bag may weigh less than mine... or more.

**CITC** · 10-20-2009, 19:50

Originally Posted by Knotty

It's open cell foam, so the under side will compress and offer no insulation. Would have to be used with an insulated pad.

Nope. I sleep in my hammock with the open cell foam pad and do just fine. There is actually a very good reason to have an open cell foam pad for this particular system. I believe Cannibal has posted my response about that.

**CITC** · 10-20-2009, 19:53

Originally Posted by gRaFFiX

went through the ordering process a little and picked the expedition and the 1" pad with 1/2" foam liner and the total was already $677.99. I closed the laptop, pulled my knees into my chest and just shook few a few minutes.....

I'm sure you were shaking in shock at the sticker price and not because you thought it was amusing.

There are many reasons for the prices.

1) The material costs.
2) These bags are not a standard size, they are made to fit the individual ordering. So, they are a custom fit and given a lot of attention.

**Hooch** · 10-20-2009, 19:55

Still, about 9#, give or take really isn't practical for the backpacker. May be peachy keen for car camping, but its weight pretty much excludes it from backpacking use.

**Mustardman** · 10-20-2009, 19:57

My entire sleep and shelter system weighs less than 9 pounds

Could probably throw cooking and fuel in there and still weigh less

**Cannibal** · 10-20-2009, 20:02

Good to see you joined us.

I agree about the weight guys and gals, but you have to consider that not everybody backpacks. Don't know why they wouldn't, but some don't. If these things can perform at the same level as down and you are maybe a hunter camped for a week in sub zero temps, then I can see the use. Like you said Hooch, it's roughly the same price as a JRB set.

Me, I'll stick with my light down for now. However, I know folks (non-hangers) that would view this system as a solid one.

**CITC** · 10-20-2009, 20:04

Originally Posted by Hooch

Also, bear in mind that since it's open cell foam that if it gets wet, it's gonna stay that way for a while. Add that to it's horribly cumbersome weight and being way overpriced, I do believe we can safely say this system is a no-go.

This is just opposite of my experience. Let's look at the physics involved. Moisture moves toward the cold. The greater the difference between temperatures inside your bag and the outside temperature, the stronger the movement of moisture from the warm environment to the cold environment.

Take a glass of ice water. The water vapor in the warmer air is attracted to the cold surface of the glass. The same principle applies to winter camping and the management of moisture.

The materials used in these bags present as few barriers as possible for that movement of moisture. This is important because wet generally means cold in the winter-time, so moisture management is a large part of staying warm.

It's true that you can take a 0 degree bag and spend the weekend in it. And if that's all you want to do, then you don't need a bag like I produce. However, if you take that same bag under subfreezing conditions and spend a week in it without the opportunity to thaw and dry it out, the moisture will begin to build up in that bag, and eventually you will be sleeping in a block of ice.

I have mittens made out of foam and I have taken my hands with mittens on and plunged them into a running stream with the outside temp of 15F. I squeezed out as much water as I could, then put them back on my hands. My hands were cold for about 10 seconds, and in the next couple of hours the mitten dried. My hands were never cold after that 10 seconds.

This winter I will be doing a whole body plunge in the water and then I will wring out as much water as possible, put the foam clothing back on and crawl into my foam bag and spend the night. I'm hoping for temperatures in the 10's if not lower.

I'll be taping it for the amusement of all who want to watch.

**TeeDee** · 10-20-2009, 20:04

He does have a valid argument about down absorbing perspiration long term. That is the concern he is really selling.

That is one of the advantages of the HH OCF pad.

I guess if you're going to be able to dry out down thoroughly every so often, then it isn't a concern. You define "every so often" for yourself. I've heard reports from some people of a week being about as long as they can go without getting enough perspiration in their down bags that they were seriously concerned about their use and of others in that time period considering their down to be somewhat ineffective to very ineffective. Others don't seem to have the problem or at least as bad. It would depend on how much a person sweats when enclosed in the down.

But for extended periods of exposed sub-freezing weather, then the absorbed water can be a serious concern, very serious.

My take is if you are in sub-freezing weather for an extended period (I would not consider anything less than 1 month to be "an extended period" - just my opinion) for whatever reason, then the weight and price can be of a far secondary concern.

Sleeping in down that has a serious absorbed perspiration problem can be problematic and lead to serious hypothermia.

I think from what I saw and heard from his video, trying to compare his bags to down for the serious or casual AT hiker to be rather silly. From the AT trail logs I have read, the typical AT hiker just isn't away from civilization far enough or long enough to have to consider the problem. The same probably holds for most or all maintained trails in the US.

Just my opinion of course.

**Mustardman** · 10-20-2009, 20:07

To me the place where you'd want to use something like this would be serious arctic expeditions - stuff where you have base camps and porters or big equipment to haul in your gear. If I were mountaineering for months at a time and had hundreds of pounds of gear, then a 9 pound sleeping bag that didn't freeze would be ideal. If I were working on neutrino detector experiments in Antarctica where everything is hauled in on snow cats, I'd be all over it. If I were using dog sleds to explore the north pole, sign me up.

For anything I'm actually gonna do in my lifetime, not so much