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  1. #21
    Senior Member hacktorious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter_pan View Post
    Hacktorious,

    I understand your issue but still don't buy the argument for the WS in your comparision.... The DWR finish of both the synthetic and down UQ will keep light drizzle, splash, etc at bay on either model....

    Staying dry regardless of insulation is important in every case.... a wet synthetic that degrades ONLY 15-30 percent when wet, when you are at the design limits, say 30 degrees will still be a less than fun night... it will actually be sleepless in all likelyhood, if that degraded.... It is fine to think of synthetic as better when wet.... But it is best to not get either wet and planning to take risks on weather protection is not smart.... Bottom line is they both should have an adequate tarp for protection.... And if you want to compare the two for weight do so on the basis of the quilts alone, the WS is not required and adequate additional tarpage which is a far better way to reduce any wet risks, is available for as little as two additional oz over a stock fly.

    As an extra note.... I bet that almost everyone who has experianced a wet sleeping bag (of any type) has experianced it in a tent that was either poorly sited or had a leaky top that resulted in a bathub bottom filling and the bag soaking , wicking from the low spot (normally the foot end, as the head is sited uphill by most)..... These are not normal risks in a hammock....

    Normal risks in a hammock begin with inadequate to marginal tarps . These risks are exaccerbated by poor site selection where side wind become a factor.

    Pan
    Your probably correct. I have not heard many stories of people getting soaked in a hammock. Now that I think of it, I cannot recall any.....lol I do feel pretty confident in the new HH rain fly's, which are now 30% larger than they used to be.

    So far I have not had any issues in the rain. Take a look at my tarp and see what you think. It has pretty good coverage. Unless the rain is coming from underneath the hammock, I think I am safe.

    Your correct in saying site location is a major factor.
    Scott
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  2. #22
    Peter_pan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hacktorious View Post
    Your probably correct. I have not heard many stories of people getting soaked in a hammock. Now that I think of it, I cannot recall any.....lol I do feel pretty confident in the new HH rain fly's, which are now 30% larger than they used to be.

    So far I have not had any issues in the rain. Take a look at my tarp and see what you think. It has pretty good coverage. Unless the rain is coming from underneath the hammock, I think I am safe.

    Your correct in saying site location is a major factor.
    Hacktorious,

    The new top is certainly an improvement.... more symetrical than in the past....still no true ridge line(seam) hence the forming troughs in the pictures... remember all silnyl is only waterproof to 1-3 psi, which is pretty low.

    With good site selection and a low steep storm pitch, to the trees, you will probably be just fine....

    Pan
    Ounces to Grams.

    www.jacksrbetter.com ... Largest supplier of camping quilts and under quilts...Home of the Original Nest Under Quilt, and Bear Mountain Bridge Hammock. 800 595 0413

  3. #23
    Senior Member hacktorious's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter_pan View Post
    Hacktorious,

    The new top is certainly an improvement.... more symetrical than in the past....still no true ridge line(seam) hence the forming troughs in the pictures... remember all silnyl is only waterproof to 1-3 psi, which is pretty low.

    With good site selection and a low steep storm pitch, to the trees, you will probably be just fine....

    Pan

    hmmmm........ Does anyone know what the average psi for rain storm's in the US is?
    Last edited by hacktorious; 06-05-2007 at 19:12.
    Scott
    Never under estimate the wisdom of nature!
    www.ScottMacri.com

  4. #24
    slowhike's Avatar
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    speaking of down vs synthetic when wet, there was an interesting article on the backpackinglight.com site a while back.
    according to their tests, there wasn't as much difference between the two in loft/ insulation when wet as thought.
    and there wasn't nearly the difference in drying times (returning to original loft) as most people believe.
    according to BPL.com, at least part of our deeply ingrained thinking about that subject has been pounded in by those that sell synthetic insulated products.
    just food for thought. ...tim
    don`t leave the CREATOR out of the creation!

  5. #25
    Senior Member gstepclassical's Avatar
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    I don't know about the average psi encountered during a storm but I have constructed two BlackCat silnylon tarps now and have exposed them to some pretty good downpours. They have kept me bone dry. I think what Pan said about steep pitch is right on the mark. I have also built two Potomacs, one with two layers of insulation and one with three for my wife. They seem to work well down to about thirty degrees for us. I think you will be pleased with it. It does take some time to learn how to adjust it for varying temps so practice before you take it out for real. I have pictures of all in my gallery.
    Last edited by gstepclassical; 06-06-2007 at 06:22.
    When it goes over their heads, it really doesn't matter how high it is.

  6. #26
    Senior Member NCPatrick's Avatar
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    according to BPL.com, at least part of our deeply ingrained thinking about that subject has been pounded in by those that sell synthetic insulated products.
    just food for thought. ...tim

    I hear that down is best from the down item salespeople, I hear that synthetic works really well from the synthetic item salespeople. There's obviously and certainly room in the market for both. The two types of insulation don't even compete with each other much for the same demographics price-wise. If anyone started selling really inexpensive down underquilts (assuming that would even be possible), or if there were some huge improvements regarding the bulk factor of synthetic insulation, then you'd start seeing battles for market share, but not yet. Until then I think people are content to continue to use what works best for them in their price comfort range. (Or just make their own.)

    Sorry for the ramble. I'd better go get more coffee.
    Last edited by NCPatrick; 06-06-2007 at 08:02.

  7. #27
    slowhike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCPatrick View Post

    I hear that down is best from the down item salespeople, I hear that synthetic works really well from the synthetic item salespeople. There's obviously and certainly room in the market for both. The two types of insulation don't even compete with each other much for the same demographics price-wise. If anyone started selling really inexpensive down underquilts (assuming that would even be possible), or if there were some huge improvements regarding the bulk factor of synthetic insulation, then you'd start seeing battles for market share, but not yet. Until then I think people are content to continue to use what works best for them in their price comfort range. (Or just make their own.)

    Sorry for the ramble. I'd better go get more coffee.
    the thing about the BPL.com article is that (as best i can remember) all the insulated clothing & quilts they sell are synthetic insulated, yet their test results seem to be calling the common thoughts on wet synthetic vs down a greatly exaggerated misconception. ...tim
    don`t leave the CREATOR out of the creation!

  8. #28
    Senior Member NCPatrick's Avatar
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    I would think that down might clump when wet, whereas synthetic wouldn't. But since I haven't actually seen any test results (has anyone?), the jury is still out on that. But ok. I guess I need a membership to BPL (maybe for Christmas).

  9. #29
    slowhike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCPatrick View Post
    I would think that down might clump when wet, whereas synthetic wouldn't. But since I haven't actually seen any test results (has anyone?), the jury is still out on that. But ok. I guess I need a membership to BPL (maybe for Christmas).
    i think you'll feel like you got your $25 worth
    don`t leave the CREATOR out of the creation!

  10. #30
    Senior Member blackbishop351's Avatar
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    I've read a fair bit on the BPL forums...I'm not terribly impressed. Seems like a lot of guys on soapboxes who try to support their inflexible opinions with dubious evidence. That's just a general observation, not necessarily pertaining to what Tim's talking about. JMO.
    "Physics is the only true science. All else is stamp collecting." - J. J. Thompson

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