What to do with new JRB Springer Quilt

[Take-a-knee]

With the down shifting you are experiencing, I really doubt that a 10% over stuff - another 1 oz of down, would make it work for you. Adding 2 oz for a 20% over stuff might work. If I was going to be adding down, I would buy 3 oz from either StormCrow (I believe he has just announced a price reduction on his 800 fp) or a 3.1 oz bag of 900 fp from Ed Speer. Either way, the extra down is going to cost another $20 to $25 and whether it would then work for you would be another experiment.

I would just add 2-3 ounces of down. Use the shop vac method:

http://www.tothewoods.net/StuffingDown.html

[MedicineMan]

I think JRB is being quite generous in offering something back toward another purchase..the temp range of all their quilt is stated and in my experience on target.
I am curious about this quilt though...it does fit the JRB Bridge hammock right?
I'm going to do the AT section of Vermont or a chunk of ME this summer/fall and I think a 40F quilt is what I need and I want to use a bridge on that hike.....

[Just Jeff]

GrinchMT - I think you're being very evenhanded about this issue...thanks for objectively stating your position and being fair to all involved.

I'm surprised to hear that you're experiencing that much down shifting...I've had a little in my NS and Nest, but it's remedied by fluffing and shaking the down to where I want it (in the middle for cold nights and around the edges when I'm too warm). But if you're not happy with it, and JRB won't add an overstuff, I think your best bet is to get another few ounces of down and stuff it yourself. It's really not that difficult. The hardest part of DIY is making the first cut...after that it's just keeping your patience.

You could even shave some weight off by taking a few inches off either side at the feet and sewing the footbox together...then you wouldn't need extra down at the footbox, and could add the 3 ounces above the knees/thigh.

Might even trim down the overall width if you don't need all of it.

As a side note, I've been very happy with my JRB products (Nest, NS, Stealth, MW4, hood, 8x8 tarp, 11x10 tarp...not all that comfortable in the Bridge, though). Given that I'm a cold sleeper, and I'm comfortable a few degrees above what most other folks are in the JRB quilts, I think the ratings are pretty accurate. Much more accurate than many of the sleeping bags I've tried! I've actually taken the MW4 to below zero...and since I sleep cold I think their 0-10F rating is conservative. This isn't to invalidate your view...it either works for your or it doesn't, and since it's weight in your pack and out of your wallet, your opinion is the only one that matters in this decision! Just giving my experience.

Again, thanks for keeping a positive tone in your criticism and your search for a solution. This is what makes the forum successful.

[BillyBob58]

I read the entire thread, but maybe I missed it: did you consider just selling the quilt here or at BPL and then buying what you want? Maybe you could get 80% and be done with it?

I suspect another JRB will perform in a similar fashion for you. More down relative to the width may keep enough down over you even on your side and on the ground. But still, considering that the center is higher when side sleeping than when on your back- especially on the ground as opposed to in a hammock, down is going to tend to slide downward when there is only one continuous baffle. Many high quality sleeping bags have more baffles that prevent the down from shifting side to side.

Your situation is essentially the reverse from with a hammock. Some have occasionally complained, with down UQs, of down settling to the bottom under the hammock, leaving shoulders with marginal coverage. Others shift the down to the bottom on purpose, to maximize bottom warmth when pushing the quilts limits. IOW, there is a tendency for the down to drop to the bottom unless there are adequate baffles running head to foot to stop it. So, (I think in agreement with you) I'm not at all sure another quilt of similar design would completely solve your problem.

For example, I notice you say this is not a problem with your synthetic quilts. Naturally enough, as I'm sure you would not normally get any "settling" of insulation with synthetic, at least not with Polarguard or Climashield, assuming a minimal amount of quilting loops. (EDIT: Plus, I suppose a possible consideration is: you said the synthetic quilts are rated at 35, the Springer is rated at 40, and you were at 29. Add even a small amount of down shifting, and it's not that surprising that you were not warm.)

And, these are synthetic quilts, not sleeping bags? So, sounds like you are used to quilts. So, if no problem with synthetic quilts then you probably are not having an issue with drafts around the neck, shoulders or other areas. Some do have a big problem with that when going from bags to quilts. I know I used to, especially when pushing the temps for a given loft.

[GrinchMT]

GrinchMT - I think you're being very evenhanded about this issue...thanks for objectively stating your position and being fair to all involved.

Thanks. I am not angry at the Jacks and there isn't any reason to beat them up. The quilt IS superbly constructed. It's high quality and there is no getting around that. I would have preferred another option from them but hey, that's their business practices and that's just something I have to live with.

You could even shave some weight off by taking a few inches off either side at the feet and sewing the footbox together...then you wouldn't need extra down at the footbox, and could add the 3 ounces above the knees/thigh.

If I decide to go ahead and modify this, you can bet Im going whole hog to emulate how I have sewn my synthetics in the past. That includes shaving off a whole lot of material at the footbox which should offset the additional weight of the new down. I'm also going to remove all of the omni tape stuff. It's an unnecessary item for me.

I read the entire thread, but maybe I missed it: did you consider just selling the quilt here or at BPL and then buying what you want? Maybe you could get 80% and be done with it?

Truthfully, I don't think the design is right for this large of a quilt. That is also the opinion of several other quilt makers. They have all said the exact same thing. The baffles are too wide for the most part amongst other things. Therefore I personally would not feel right selling it to someone else knowing they may be just as unhappy.

For example, I notice you say this is not a problem with your synthetic quilts. Naturally enough, as I'm sure you would not normally get any "settling" of insulation with synthetic, at least not with Polarguard or Climashield, assuming a minimal amount of quilting loops. (EDIT: Plus, I suppose a possible consideration is: you said the synthetic quilts are rated at 35, the Springer is rated at 40, and you were at 29. Add even a small amount of down shifting, and it's not that surprising that you were not warm.)

And, these are synthetic quilts, not sleeping bags? So, sounds like you are used to quilts. So, if no problem with synthetic quilts then you probably are not having an issue with drafts around the neck, shoulders or other areas. Some do have a big problem with that when going from bags to quilts. I know I used to, especially when pushing the temps for a given loft.

I am totally comfortable in a quilt. And actually I think I am incorrect about my temp ratings. I use an inch and a half of Climshield Xp which I think is actually a 40 degree rating? In any case, I have taken those quilts down 20 degrees with the same pad and clothes I wore with the JRB quilt and was fine.

Just to reiterate, I wasn't *cold* per se, but was uncomfortable due to the bare silnylon sitting on me sucking the heat from me. You can get the same effect in a regularly functioning quilt by laying up against the side of a tarptent.

All in all everyone's suggestions here have been great and I thank you. This has always been an interesting community that I have lurked in but posted very little. I appreciate it all a great deal.

[GrinchMT]

Observation and Decision:

I could be nuts, I've certainly been called worse, but in my opinion I don't see the validity in any sleeping bag or quilt being given a certain degree rating when the item in question cannot hold its insulation in place. My problem with the JRB Springer product wasn't the degree rating. It was with the down not staying in place to provide a proper, even loft in order to HOLD that temp rating.

Think of it this way. If you paid someone to blow a layer of R40 Insulation into your attic in order to heat your home efficiently, would you accept that your insulated attic now has 5 inches in some spots, but only 2 in others, or none at all in certain spots? While the overall roof might have enough insulation for an R40 value, what happens to those 2 inch spots? You lose heat. Would you find it acceptable to have to get up in the middle of the night, step outside of yoru hammock, tent, or tarp to shake the quilt around in order to get an even loft again?

What if this were a sleeping pad? Would you be comfy in an R4 rated pad that was only R1 at your hips and maybe R5 at your head?

Many folks, including Jack Tier (of JRB) have said to me that I need a higher degree rated quilt. Using the above analogy, I say different and I think it is incorrect to assume that more down, bigger baffles, and more money will solve this problem in this size of a quilt.

I KNOW that I have slept in a 40 degree synthetic quilt down to 20 degrees very easily without having a cold shoulder, hip and rear end. And the reason I have done so is because there was an even layer of insulation throughout my quilt. I have worn the same sleep clothes for almost 3 years, and used the same pad for last 2 so the only variable is the quilt itself.

This JRB quilt is built exceptionally well and the Jacks have their business policies stated clearly. None of that was ever the issue. I bought a quilt in mid December on sale KNOWING that I would not be able to try it fully until the weather broke, thereby most likely ruining any chance of a refund within the 15 day timeframe. (Who really takes a 40 degree summer quilt into zero degree weather in Montana?) I did sleep half a night in the quilt at 25 degrees and was toasty warm. I did not sleep in it the entire night as I did the past weekend.

I have not since this past weekend been able to get this quilt shaken out in any way possible to achieve an even layer of 1.5 inches of loft as is advertised with the quilt.

JRB made an offer to me of two different types of credit as long as I purchase another of their quilts. That was generous because I was outside of their 15 day return policy, but wrong for me because most of their quilts are 48 inches wide and that is too small for me. However, in the future, I suggest they do not sell "summer" quilts in the winter, or at special prices if they still intend to maintain this 15 day practice. It isn't fair to the consumer who might not be as understandable.

So I have decided to keep the quilt and just modify it to hopefully get something usable. I am not interested in temp ratings. I am interested in a quilt maintaining an even layer of insulation, whether it is down or synthetic.

This will probably be a big expensive lesson, as right now I view my money being wasted for a flawed product. I have already been in contact with a few other companies and am in discussion about a "large" down quilt that is built to withstand extreme loft shifting.

I will make a post when I am done with all of my modifications just to show what I did and see if it actually works within the parameters of 1X7 inch baffles that the Jacks R Better Springer uses.

Thanks again for everyone's input. It was very much appreciated.

[lazy river road]

Good Luck on your project, their are some great people here who Im sure would be more then happy to offer up their advice and help you with moding your quilt. Looking forward to hearing how it turns out. Happy Hikeing and (I usually say Hanging but in your case) sleeping on the ground...

[Just Jeff]

Yep - good luck on your project. Don't think of it as an expensive mistake...think of it as as expensive starting point on something you can modify to YOUR exact specifications. You might like your end product better than if you had bought a different quilt in the first place. That's what DIY is all about!

[Hawk-eye]

... besides your DIY might bring some insight to the group you could share later by posting your projects results. DIY good ... first hand shared experience GOODER

[GrinchMT]

LOL. I agree Hawk. Both myself and my wife were a little afraid to jump into doing anything with down. But since having this bad experience with the Jacks R Better product, I figured this is the perfect excuse to just do it. I've swen synthetic quilts, tarps, and a variety of odds and sods in the past, just never worked with down.

I have written up a plan of sorts along with measurement and weights so we can see the "before" and "after".