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  1. #71
    New Member mgabel_pi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mustardman View Post
    I'm an avid climber, and use lots of climbing webbing, from thick nylon to ultra-stiff thin spectra webbing, and have never had problems with a girth hitch holding. Are you sure you're dressing the hitch well?
    Yes, it's dressed properly. It holds under tension. But the webbing is so slippery and not so bendable that if I just push up a little the hitch starts to come undone. So, for for example, if I were to just put the tree huggers in a bag with the rings simply girth hitched to the webbing, the jostling around in the bag would allow the rings to fall off. Here are two pics showing proper dressing and one showing how the knot loosens, and then one illustrating my next question.

    Actually, I'm not sure if the short end (not holding the load) is on the top (as I've done it) or underneath. Either way, though, the knot falls apart with my webbing.
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  2. #72
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    Girth hitches aren't meant for the asymmetrical loading you're putting them to. A girth hitch joins a loop to something, and derives some of its stability from the fact that strain comes on both load strands.

    The way you're loading it, it'll have the same problem as a square knot: it's not meant to have load on only one strand.

    Also: try dressing your girth hitches so that the whole hitch is farther up the load strands, away from the ring. Do they still un-knot after you've hung on them?

    If you're just trying to make a webbing loop that will stay secure, I'd recommend the tape knot/water knot. Make sure to leave a long tail, and consider tying a backup knot. This won't have the cinching action of a girth hitch, though. You could also tie a loop using a tape knot and then tie a girth hitch with that loop.

  3. #73
    Senior Member TiredFeet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrizzlyAdams View Post
    When I started using the garda hitch I was using Vectran 12 suspension line. 12 strand weave, pretty pliable. I noticed after a bit that the cord was getting really pinched. Being concerned (without any engineering data) about the effect on the cord threads, I switched back to 3.8mm Spyderline, which has a firm core and a sheath. To have that core break would be really bad, but I've seen no evidence of that yet.

    Grizz
    No engineering data, but vectrus (vectran?) is well know to be susceptible to abrasion and it's use in any application where abrasion is even a small factor is discouraged.

  4. #74
    Senior Member TeeDee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mgabel_pi View Post
    Yes, it's dressed properly. It holds under tension. But the webbing is so slippery and not so bendable that if I just push up a little the hitch starts to come undone. So, for for example, if I were to just put the tree huggers in a bag with the rings simply girth hitched to the webbing, the jostling around in the bag would allow the rings to fall off. Here are two pics showing proper dressing and one showing how the knot loosens, and then one illustrating my next question.

    Actually, I'm not sure if the short end (not holding the load) is on the top (as I've done it) or underneath. Either way, though, the knot falls apart with my webbing.
    Quote Originally Posted by adkpiper View Post
    Girth hitches aren't meant for the asymmetrical loading you're putting them to. A girth hitch joins a loop to something, and derives some of its stability from the fact that strain comes on both load strands.

    The way you're loading it, it'll have the same problem as a square knot: it's not meant to have load on only one strand.

    Also: try dressing your girth hitches so that the whole hitch is farther up the load strands, away from the ring. Do they still un-knot after you've hung on them?

    If you're just trying to make a webbing loop that will stay secure, I'd recommend the tape knot/water knot. Make sure to leave a long tail, and consider tying a backup knot. This won't have the cinching action of a girth hitch, though. You could also tie a loop using a tape knot and then tie a girth hitch with that loop.
    I've had much the same experience with girth hitching webbing to rings with sewn end loops so that the loading is symmetrical. Even after being loaded for 8 to 10 hours overnight, the webbing can still easily pop off the ring when unloaded.

    Even fairly flexible webbing like the Harbor Freight webbing will do this, but not as readily.

    Using the extremely stiff 1" wide strapworks webbing, it can be very difficult to get the girth hitch to hold long enough to load it.

    BY the way, if you have ever cinched a saddle on a horse (or any other 4 legged transport), then you would recognize that hitch as a saddle hitch.

  5. #75
    Ramblinrev's Avatar
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    I'm missing something. Animated Knots shows the girth hitch as a Larks Head although it is demonstrated with loops on the site. It does list the Larks Head as an alternate name. So are you saying the Larks Head done with webbing is an unstable knot except under load? I was under the impression it was quite stable and therefore useful for such application as whipping hammock ends. What am I missing?
    I may be slow... But I sure am gimpy.

    "Bless you child, when you set out to thread a needle don't hold the thread still and fetch the needle up to it; hold the needle still and poke the thread at it; that's the way a woman most always does, but a man always does t'other way."
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  6. #76
    Senior Member TeeDee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramblinrev View Post
    I'm missing something. Animated Knots shows the girth hitch as a Larks Head although it is demonstrated with loops on the site. It does list the Larks Head as an alternate name. So are you saying the Larks Head done with webbing is an unstable knot except under load? I was under the impression it was quite stable and therefore useful for such application as whipping hammock ends. What am I missing?
    As with most things in life, the devil is in the details.

    The security of any knot depends on both the application and the material used to tie the knot.

    The main problem in using the girth hitch, aka Larks Head, in this application is the webbing and not the knot itself. Webbing can be very stiff, i.e., hard to bend. That stiffness of the webbing causes the webbing to not only resist bending, but also to attempt to return to it's original unbent form. In attempting to tie the girth hitch around the ring, the radius of the bends is small and the resistance to bending commensurately larger and the forces attempting to return the webbing to the unbent form larger. In this application, the forces can actually be large enough to undo the knot enough that the webbing will slip off the ring entirely when unloaded.

  7. #77
    Ramblinrev's Avatar
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    Gotcha.... thanks...
    I may be slow... But I sure am gimpy.

    "Bless you child, when you set out to thread a needle don't hold the thread still and fetch the needle up to it; hold the needle still and poke the thread at it; that's the way a woman most always does, but a man always does t'other way."
    Mrs. Loftus to Huck Finn

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  8. #78
    Senior Member Mustardman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adkpiper View Post
    If you're just trying to make a webbing loop that will stay secure, I'd recommend the tape knot/water knot. Make sure to leave a long tail, and consider tying a backup knot. This won't have the cinching action of a girth hitch, though. You could also tie a loop using a tape knot and then tie a girth hitch with that loop.
    I'll second this. I've never had the problem you're describing, and I've tied LOTS of girth hitches in sewn loop webbing to carabiners, anchors, and lots of other stuff over the years. But if for whatever reason it's not working for you, the water knot is the way to go.

  9. #79
    New Member mgabel_pi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mustardman View Post
    I'll second this. I've never had the problem you're describing, and I've tied LOTS of girth hitches in sewn loop webbing to carabiners, anchors, and lots of other stuff over the years. But if for whatever reason it's not working for you, the water knot is the way to go.
    I'm a little confused. A water knot is for tying two pieces of webbing together, not, as I understand, for making a loop using just one free end. In fact, with that slippery webbing I've been using, I cannot find any knot that makes a loop that holds. For example, a figure 8 loop falls apart instantly. All I can think of is what Grizz said in message 64, above, which is to make a loop and then grab the two ends and use it a single cord to attach it to the webbing with a double sheet bend.

  10. #80
    New Member mgabel_pi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TeeDee View Post
    As with most things in life, the devil is in the details.

    The security of any knot depends on both the application and the material used to tie the knot.

    The main problem in using the girth hitch, aka Larks Head, in this application is the webbing and not the knot itself. Webbing can be very stiff, i.e., hard to bend. That stiffness of the webbing causes the webbing to not only resist bending, but also to attempt to return to it's original unbent form. In attempting to tie the girth hitch around the ring, the radius of the bends is small and the resistance to bending commensurately larger and the forces attempting to return the webbing to the unbent form larger. In this application, the forces can actually be large enough to undo the knot enough that the webbing will slip off the ring entirely when unloaded.
    Yup. That's why I locked down the girth hitch, as described in post 61, center image. One can also lock it down using the load bearing strand of the webbing. That's very secure as the load locks it tighter. But, you need to use the "other" (long) end to make that knot and you may not have access to that end. For a one time "permanent" ring attachment that's less of a problem.

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