Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 12

Hybrid View

  1. #1
    New Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    23

    Amsteel and knots, what's the deal?

    Splicing is obviously better than knots. This works well for when you make up some permanent rigging for your hammock or other things, but there are many times that you want/need to just tie a knot.

    Regarding amsteel and knots, I have heard two concerns. Some people claim that knots cannot hold due to the slippery nature of the amsteel line. Well, I recently received some amsteel, and after experimenting I'm pretty sure this isn't actually a problem if the right knots are used, even for a slide a grip knot. I suggest the klemheist over the prusik.

    The other concern seems more likely. I have read that the nature of the material is such that it is weakened by knots much more than normal line. Is this true and why?

    If amsteel is weakened too much to take knots, this seems like a major defect. I'd rather carry a heaver line that can be knotted. The weight difference probably isn't very much anyway.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Tendertoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Columbus, OH
    Hammock
    WBRR
    Tarp
    Superfly
    Insulation
    HG
    Suspension
    webbing and rings
    Posts
    1,352
    The whole idea about steering away from using knots with Amsteel is this - knots derate ALL cordage (some knots derate the cord by as much as 60%).

    When you are talking suspension, that is the real danger and the reason many folks steer clear of knots.

    This would be an issue if you were using 7/64 Amsteel for your suspension due to the fact that the breaking strength is 1600 lbs. If you tie an overhand knot in it you will derate it by 60% meaning your rating is now 640lbs. Pair that up with a not-ideal hang where your angles are steeper than usual (see Knotty's chart), at 10 degrees, you have exceeded your rating for your suspension and risk breaking. Of course there are knots that derate the line by much less, but many folks choose to not have the worry and just splice.

    Someone much more Mathy than myself may chime in.

  3. #3
    Mr. Arrowhead pgibson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    SW Idaho
    Hammock
    Black Bird 1.1 Dbl
    Tarp
    AHE Shangi La
    Insulation
    KAQ Prototype
    Suspension
    AHE Whoopie Slings
    Posts
    4,540
    As well, due to the slippery nature of amsteel tied in with the compressibility of it, when loaded most knots compress the line to an extreme level. This plays into weakening the line more than most and makes it very hard to undo the knot, even those that may not be difficult in a rope with a core. If you have a knot that is significantly weakened and is not able to be untied for some reason then you are far better off with a splice. Splicing is not hard to do and does not take long either...there are even folks that will do the splicing for you.
    Arrowhead Equipment -- For all your hanging, backpacking and Ultralight Fishing gear needs.

    Free APEX Upgrade on Every Kick *** Quilt (KAQ)

    Now Offering FlameThower Down Gear And Tenkara Fishing gear
    Arrowhead-Equipment.com
    Tenkara-Fishing.com
    Visit AHE on Facebook Follow us on Twitter
    Sign Up for Arrowhead-Equipment Gear News: Click Here

  4. #4
    canoebie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Edwardsburg, MI
    Hammock
    DIY
    Tarp
    Super Ogee
    Insulation
    DIY IX UQ, Phoenix
    Suspension
    Whoopie Slings, dc
    Posts
    2,555
    Then there is the sheer kewel factor.....
    Revolution is about the need to re-evolve political, economic and social justice and power back into the hands of the people, preferably through legislation and policies that make human sense. That's what revolution is about. Revolution is not about shootouts.

    Bobby Seale


    http://www.riverjourneys.org

  5. #5
    New Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Maryland
    Posts
    23
    knots derate ALL cordage
    This is understood. I'd like to know what about amsteel is particularly unsuited for knots.

    due to the slippery nature of amsteel tied in with the compressibility of it, when loaded most knots compress the line to an extreme level. This plays into weakening the line more than most
    Ah okay. So, the slipperiness of the line allows the knots to tighten more, and thus pinch the line harder. Is this the main issue?


    Then there is the sheer kewel factor
    Undisputed. I definitely like being able to spice the rope. Very useful and awesome, but knots are also useful.

  6. #6
    Knotty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Denville, NJ, USA
    Hammock
    DIY Stretch-Side
    Tarp
    DIY Cat Cut Hex
    Insulation
    Phoenix and Nest
    Suspension
    cinch buckles
    Posts
    4,448
    Images
    227
    Amsteel is super strong in tension but disproportionately weaker than standard ropes in compression, so knots derate amsteel more than normal. The sailing world learned a lot of hard lessons on this subject.

    Use amsteel for situations where premade splices make sense or where you'll make knots but know in advance that the loads won't be too high.

    Many knots will start to distort and creep at as little as 10% of amsteel's rated strength, per the best known rigger in the US, Brion Toss.
    Knotty
    "Don't speak unless it improves the silence." -proverb
    DIY Gathered End Hammock
    DIY Stretch-Side Hammock
    Stretch-Side "Knotty Mod"
    DIY Bugnet

  7. #7
    Jsaults's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    St.Albans WV
    Hammock
    HH, CJH NX-250, WBBB 1.7 dbl
    Tarp
    Std, Hex, or WBSF
    Insulation
    Burrows&Incubators
    Suspension
    Poly web w/AHE buc
    Posts
    1,509

    Lots of folks hang on knotted Amsteel.

    But I have to wonder - due to the slipperyness the knots DO become veeerrrrrryyyyy tight.

    And they remain tight. Might there be a long-term degredation taking place within the super-tight knot? Fibers under constant tension elongating? I do not know - just wondering.

    Jim

  8. #8
    PuckerFactor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    SW VA
    Hammock
    DIY 11' double layer 1.1
    Tarp
    huge DIY camo
    Insulation
    DIY 9oz. Primaloft
    Suspension
    7/64"whoopie sling
    Posts
    1,208
    Something that's not been mentioned yet is that Amsteel is super easy to splice in the field. I keep a fid in my string bag whenever I'm on the trail. I haven't needed it yet, but I use it for fiddling around while killing time in camp.

    PF
    It's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

    Formerly known as Acercanto, my trail name is MacGuyver to some, and Pucker Factor to others.

    It's not procrastinating, its proactively delaying the implementation of the energy-intensive phase of the project until the enthusiasm factor is at its maximum effectiveness. - Randy Glasbergen

  9. #9
    Knotty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Denville, NJ, USA
    Hammock
    DIY Stretch-Side
    Tarp
    DIY Cat Cut Hex
    Insulation
    Phoenix and Nest
    Suspension
    cinch buckles
    Posts
    4,448
    Images
    227
    Quote Originally Posted by Jsaults View Post
    But I have to wonder - due to the slipperyness the knots DO become veeerrrrrryyyyy tight.

    And they remain tight. Might there be a long-term degredation taking place within the super-tight knot? Fibers under constant tension elongating? I do not know - just wondering.

    Jim
    I think yes but it's the compression, not the tension that's the issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by PuckerFactor View Post
    Something that's not been mentioned yet is that Amsteel is super easy to splice in the field. I keep a fid in my string bag whenever I'm on the trail. I haven't needed it yet, but I use it for fiddling around while killing time in camp.

    PF
    Great idea. Will have to create a small splicing kit for my backpack.
    Knotty
    "Don't speak unless it improves the silence." -proverb
    DIY Gathered End Hammock
    DIY Stretch-Side Hammock
    Stretch-Side "Knotty Mod"
    DIY Bugnet

  10. #10
    Senior Member exup's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Columbus, OH
    Hammock
    Traveler 1.1 sl/WBBB 1.1 dbl
    Tarp
    HG Cuben/Standard
    Insulation
    Crowsnest
    Suspension
    Dynaglide whoopies
    Posts
    1,201
    Images
    2
    I now carry a splicing tool in the fiel. Not only for splicing, but as tendertoe and rip waverly know, we had a tough time pulling/pushing shockcord through my uq channel. Now it shouldn't be as hard

    I know brandon's warbonnet hammock use knots with the 7/64 amsteel on the gathered end. I don't know what they are but they hold well. I don't know knots, but spliding is easy, fun, and neat. So I splice.

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •