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  1. #31
    Senior Member SGT Rock's Avatar
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    I don't know how long it can wait, I usually went within a few minutes of applying it since it dries fast.
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  2. #32
    WV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlebigpole View Post
    So yeah I would think the side edge would be the first trick. The long edge I would think might be the easy part. The long wood piece would be resting on the table or floor or whatever you were working on. It would be gravity working for the rest of it. Controlled gravity that is. My next question would be is how long can that primer sit before you actually have to stick it.

    Just a thought. Thanks for your input. Your video was very informative.
    LBP, the primer needs to dry, which it does within 5 minutes under good conditions. After that it can wait quite a while, but the work should be kept clean - don't let dust settle on it, for instance. So, finishing the bond within an hour or so is fine, maybe a lot longer.

    Take a look at my description of taping the cuben to a masonite work surface again. That works well, and it's easily done by someone working alone. Your idea of taping the cuben to a long stick would be much more difficult, IMO, because you need to get the whole length aligned accurately and placed all at once. An 11' piece of wood bends a lot under its own weight, unless it's a 4 x 4. It's better to have the cuben pieces already aligned and held in place, so they bond instantly as the backing paper is removed.

  3. #33
    Member littlebigpole's Avatar
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    Ok, so I see the point of the wood bending. Didnt think of that. That thought just came to me while looking at the video.

    Thanks for the replies.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by WV View Post
    My next round of tie-out testing will have 1/2" polypropylene straps sewn to DP's "Triastic" fabric, which is a polyester spinnaker cloth with a polyester coating. Then I'll bond the Triastic to cuben and see how much force it takes to cause failure and where it breaks.
    Here is the Triastic patch bonded to the cuben with 3M 9460 adhesive transfer tape (plus Primer), ready for the pull test. I have already tested the Triastic-to-cuben connection, both sewn and with 9460 tape, and I know that both methods of connecting them are strong enough. What I expect to learn is where the cuben material will tear and how much force it takes to tear it. From Sgt. Rock's video, I see I could further strengthen the connection by adding a layer of cuben over the Triastic patch, and I may do that in the future because it would provide a way of tapering the reinforcing patch (if the cuben added was bigger than the Triastic). Earlier pull tests have shown that a strong reinforcing patch on cuben will fail right at the edge of the patch. Tapering may help spread the force over a larger area, resulting in a stronger connection.

    I'll post test results in this thread, with a link to my earlier tests. As this one builds on what we learned earlier, it make sense to sticky this thread, adding new information as it appears.
    WV,

    I've seen 3M 9460 used here and there, but haven't used it myself. Do you know how it compares to 9485pc? Suppose I could look at the data sheets, but real world experience is helpful too.

    Ryan

  5. #35
    WV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Violent Green View Post
    WV,

    I've seen 3M 9460 used here and there, but haven't used it myself. Do you know how it compares to 9485pc? Suppose I could look at the data sheets, but real world experience is helpful too.

    Ryan
    There are two differences between 9460 and 9485: type of adhesive and thickness. First, 3M uses two different adhesives for these tapes. Both work for polyester (which includes CTF3 or cuben fiber). The adhesive used for 9485 is called "350" and the adhesive used for 9460 is called "100MP". The difference between these two is that 100MP requires a primer ("Primer 94") to achieve the strongest possible bond, but with that primer, it is stronger than "350", especially in resisting peel forces. To some extent, that's academic because we should be designing to limit loading on our tarp seams to shear forces, not peel. It's also not terribly important because both types of adhesive are "strong enough" for our uses. FWIW, using Primer 94 with 9485 improves its bonding, too, but it's still second-best when it comes to bond strength. Using Primer 94 is very easy, so I chose 9460.

    The second difference between the two tapes is the thickness of the adhesive layer. Both types of adhesive transfer tape are made in two thicknesses, 2 mil or 5 mil. 2 mil is good for very flat or very thin and flexible materials (like CTF3). 5 mil is good for bonding stiffer materials with rougher surfaces (like an aluminum sign to a brick wall). Tapes using 100MP adhesive are 9460 (2 mil) and 9469 (5 mil). Tapes using 350 adhesive are 9482 (2 mil) and 9485 (5 mil).

    The information on the relative strengths of the bonds is from the 3M data sheets, and it was confirmed in my testing. I use 2 mil tape (9460) with primer for construction and 2 mil tape (9482) for on-trail repairs (which I haven't needed so far, but I have pieces of CTF3 with tape applied ready to use).

    Hope this helps. Everything works, for the most part, but it's nice to feel that you're using the best possible combination of materials and bonding agents.

  6. #36
    Senior Member SGT Rock's Avatar
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    Reading that, I wonder if one could bond nylon pull-outs to cuben using 9485? And if you could, how strong would it be?
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by WV View Post
    There are two differences between 9460 and 9485: type of adhesive and thickness. First, 3M uses two different adhesives for these tapes. Both work for polyester (which includes CTF3 or cuben fiber). The adhesive used for 9485 is called "350" and the adhesive used for 9460 is called "100MP". The difference between these two is that 100MP requires a primer ("Primer 94") to achieve the strongest possible bond, but with that primer, it is stronger than "350", especially in resisting peel forces. To some extent, that's academic because we should be designing to limit loading on our tarp seams to shear forces, not peel. It's also not terribly important because both types of adhesive are "strong enough" for our uses. FWIW, using Primer 94 with 9485 improves its bonding, too, but it's still second-best when it comes to bond strength. Using Primer 94 is very easy, so I chose 9460.

    The second difference between the two tapes is the thickness of the adhesive layer. Both types of adhesive transfer tape are made in two thicknesses, 2 mil or 5 mil. 2 mil is good for very flat or very thin and flexible materials (like CTF3). 5 mil is good for bonding stiffer materials with rougher surfaces (like an aluminum sign to a brick wall). Tapes using 100MP adhesive are 9460 (2 mil) and 9469 (5 mil). Tapes using 350 adhesive are 9482 (2 mil) and 9485 (5 mil).

    The information on the relative strengths of the bonds is from the 3M data sheets, and it was confirmed in my testing. I use 2 mil tape (9460) with primer for construction and 2 mil tape (9482) for on-trail repairs (which I haven't needed so far, but I have pieces of CTF3 with tape applied ready to use).

    Hope this helps. Everything works, for the most part, but it's nice to feel that you're using the best possible combination of materials and bonding agents.
    Good info. So you really need to use primer 94 for best results. Think I will stick with 9485pc then since both are more than strong enough in shear, and I'm a little burned out on multi-step adhesives right now(thank you Hysol). Thanks WV

    Ryan

  8. #38
    WV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SGT Rock View Post
    Reading that, I wonder if one could bond nylon pull-outs to cuben using 9485? And if you could, how strong would it be?
    Here's what 3M says about nylon and other materials. Nylon is very close to polyester in surface energy, so both types of adhesive transfer tapes should stick to it. The surface of a woven strap is rough, so a thicker tape (9469 or 9485) would be better.

    That's the theory, anyway. When I'm doing my tie-out tests I'll try it. I wonder if one of the urethane glues like Hysol or Aquaseal wouldn't work just as well. It's hard to get them thin enough for bonding sheets, but they might penetrate a woven strap and work the better for it. I think I'll try 1/2" grosgrain to CTF3.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by SGT Rock View Post
    Reading that, I wonder if one could bond nylon pull-outs to cuben using 9485? And if you could, how strong would it be?
    I've bonded grosgrain to cuben quite a bit w/ 9485pc, but never tested for the strength a tie out would need(I use it on cuben dry bags). I can run some tests if you like.

    Ryan

    *edit* - WV beat me to it.

  10. #40
    Senior Member G.L.P.'s Avatar
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    man i need to get some cuben now.....
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