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  1. #11
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    What is the temp rating of the bag?

  2. #12
    BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by koaloha05 View Post
    Disclaimer: Newbie hammock user. So new that my hanging has been limited to my property trying to figure out this concept. Property is what most people would consider "wilderness".

    Wind chill seems to be a big factor in keeping you cold. Hanging in the Hennessy ULBP in 50's, with 12-20 mph breeze was more than cold. Added a Z-pad big improvement. My guess is that the PG vs. down provided a combination of improved wind and insulation, but more on the wind chill reduction end. One of these days I'll try comparing the old PG SnowLion ('80s vintage PG), its replacement the MtnHardware Ultralamina 45 and the down bag(Mamot Atom) in the bare HH ULBP. All have similar warmth ratings. The SnowLion compress to about 4x the volume of the Mtn Hardware.
    Welcome Koaloha05,
    That sounds like a good comparison to do some day. It may turn out that down has more going for it for back warmth than we had previously assumed. Though I kind of doubt it, but you never know.
    Can you clarify a little on the " PG vs. down provided a combination of improved wind and insulation, but more on the wind chill reduction end. "? Exactly what were you comparing there and what differences did you observe, if any?
    Bill
    For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us....that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
    Romans 8:18,21-22

  3. #13
    BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Narwhalin View Post
    What is the temp rating of the bag?
    Are you asking me, or koaloha05? If me, it is a 5*F bag, 10 or 15 years old with a fair amount of loft loss compared to new. There would obviously be less benefit with lighter bags, although I have observed the same effect when using my Cat' Meow 20* bag. But I feel sure it would not provide as much benefit.

    Also, the shells must be considered, and how much they might block wind( or even vapor?), as opposed to just the PG benefit. I imagine this was at least a partial factor. However, even when there was no perceptible wind, my back was cold without the bag under me, and then even worse with a slight breeze. Either way, breeze or not, my back was fine with the lower bag layer under me.
    For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us....that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
    Romans 8:18,21-22

  4. #14
    Senior Member Hector's Avatar
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    It seems almost as though me pointing out one possible advantage of a PG bag in a hammock, compared to more compressible down bags or quilts with zero insulation underneath, has offended you.
    Not at all; it's just that the "advantage" doesn't really exist. You need insulation under you and insulation over you when it's cool. You still need a pad under you with a synthetic bag in most situations, so you gain nothing there. You don't gain anything, anyway, because a down quilt and a pad, or pair of down quilts, is still lighter (and probably less bulky) than the Polarguard bag (yes, I have one, a North Face).

    It's like observing "I get higher gas mileage in my car when I don't start it and drive." Yes, that is an undoubtedly true statement, but where is the actual advantage in that observation if you still need to get to work and you're going to be driving the car anyway?
    I am also aware of the differences in performance when wet
    This is another "advantage" which doesn't really exist. I am not going to sleep in a wet sleeping bag regardless what it's stuffed with (who would want to?!?), so what's warmer when it's soaked makes no difference to me whatsoever.

    I apologize if I've offended you; it was not my intention. I tend to be blunt and to the point. By now, though, the point is surely made, so I will retire from the thread. You may have the last word if you like.
    Last edited by Hector; 05-21-2008 at 15:43.

  5. #15
    Senior Member pedro's Avatar
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    This is just my two cents, but I think that it would be worth trying two other combos to get an objective point of reference:

    1. Same clothes, PG bag as top quilt, pad underneath. If you are going with the notion that you should be packing a pad with you anyway, in case you have to go to ground, knowing how a truly incompressible layer compares would be useful.

    2. Same clothes, PG bag as top guilt, piece of breathable dwr, hammock sock or equivalent underneath. This will tell you if the warmth that you are obviously getting from the bag underneath is mostly because of the insulation, or mostly from the reduced evaporative heat loss.

    I would love to hear your results.

  6. #16
    BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hector View Post
    Not at all; it's just that the advantage doesn't really exist. You need insulation under you and insulation over you when it's cool. You still need a pad under you with a synthetic bag in most situations, so you gain nothing there. You don't gain anything, anyway, because a down quilt and a pad, or pair of down quilts, is still lighter (and probably less bulky) than the Polarguard bag (yes, I have one).
    But, Hector, I did gain something in the very test I performed, did I not? I was able to lay there quite comfy for well over 30 minutes at 58* WITH OUT A PAD. So that tells me that, on a trip where lows would not go below 60, I could quite possibly get by with a PG bag and no pad. Where as, if I choose any kind of quilt, or a down bag, I will probably end up very uncomfortable with out the pad. So, there might be some conditions where I will choose the synthetic bag, and this additional bit of warmth underneath might be a deciding factor. Especially if I was one of those folks who hates pads in a hammock and will go to any extreme to avoid it. Which I am not, but some folks are. So, what I gained was a warm back without a pad. It's not earth shaking, but it might be worth something under some circumstances, to folks who use PG sleeping bags.



    May I suggest not getting your sleeping bag wet? I never do; I find it works better that way.
    Well, I must admit that is some of the best advice I have been given, and it had not really occurred to me!

    So what I will need to do in the future is make sure I do not hang my hammock under any trees where a branch might break off from the weight of new snow , falling and ripping a hole through my tarp, dumping a load of snow in my face and allowing unlimited amounts of new wet snow to fall on my bag for the rest of the night. Such as I observed happen to a friend of mine in June in Wyoming's Wind River mountains. And while I am at it, I should make sure that I don't loose my footing and land back first in a 6" deep creek after a rock has punctured my pack and stuff sacks in the fall. And make sure that my nearly new tarp does not spring a major leak ( for no apparent reason) in the middle of a deluge in the middle of the night, soaking me and everything in/on the hammock before I could do anything other than try to place my rain coat over the RL to partially block the leak.

    And it will also help to stay out of the kind of deluge that Preachaman described in this post. I want to make sure this kind of weather never occurs while I am on the trail, or 20 miles from the nearest dirt road deep into the Wind Rivers:
    http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/h...html#post54693

    Sorry I have not posted, since I got back I have been busy, and busier . We ended up having to be rescued by the Sheriff Dept. The county we were in received 1" of rain every 10 minutes Tuesday morning . We tried to cross Spirits Creek, but it was already about 5' deep, and had whole trees floating down it. We then hiked back to our original camp where we spent Monday night, and the creek was about to over run our camp. We hid out under a water fall, which was pretty awesome, and then decided to hike back up the 3 miles/1000' hill to the road. Our gear was pretty good until it dumped on us Tuesday morning, we had 3 tarps overlapping each other, but the spray and wind was killing us. The boy's hammocks and quilts were soaked, so we hiked out. When we got the road, my neighbor called his mother (barely), cell service was horrible, and then we hiked down the road to stay warm. The hike up the hill was terrible too, the water on the trail, running down the hill, was to our shins . We found an old homestead on the road that had a walk in cellar built into the side of the hill and hid out in there, by that time, my neighbor's mother called the Sheriff to come pick us up . They sent 3 cars to get us, and only one was able to reach us because all the roads were washed out or flooded. When the Sheriff came, he told us to leave all our stuff and go, because the last road out was almost under water. When we went over the bridge the water was even with it .................................

    Sorry, just got back home. All the quilts were synthetic, and thank the LORD, they would have been useless if they were down.
    So, yes, I probably will do better if I just avoid getting my sleeping bag wet, it probably will work better that way. So I just need to make sure to avoid all such situations as the above, which have not happened to me, but have happened to some other very experienced campers I know of. Stuff happens!
    For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us....that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
    Romans 8:18,21-22

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillyBob58 View Post
    But, Hector, I did gain something in the very test I performed, did I not? I was able to lay there quite comfy for well over 30 minutes at 58* WITH OUT A PAD. So that tells me that, on a trip where lows would not go below 60, I could quite possibly get by with a PG bag and no pad. Where as, if I choose any kind of quilt, or a down bag, I will probably end up very uncomfortable with out the pad. So, there might be some conditions where I will choose the synthetic bag, and this additional bit of warmth underneath might be a deciding factor. Especially if I was one of those folks who hates pads in a hammock and will go to any extreme to avoid it. Which I am not, but some folks are. So, what I gained was a warm back without a pad. It's not earth shaking, but it might be worth something under some circumstances, to folks who use PG sleeping bags.
    Most people wouldn't carry a 5* bag in weather that won't go below 58.* That is too big a difference in temp. Plus, I am guessing the bag weighs about 3 pounds or so. So, comparatively, it is more efficiant to use a pad, or an underquilt as they are more compressible and lighter for more benefit.

    JMO.

  8. #18
    BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Narwhalin View Post
    Most people wouldn't carry a 5* bag in weather that won't go below 58.* That is too big a difference in temp. Plus, I am guessing the bag weighs about 3 pounds or so. So, comparatively, it is more efficiant to use a pad, or an underquilt as they are more compressible and lighter for more benefit.

    JMO.
    Yes, very true, they probably wouldn't. But, they might carry it at 20* used with an UQ where they know the UQ won't satisfy them below, say, 25 or 30*. They might especially carry it if in addition they know their down top quilt won't keep them warm below 25 or 30 and they are expecting lots of wind and rain/snow along with the 20* low. So then they can add a pad to stay warm on the bottom down to 20*, even if they are pad haters. Plus lots of warm clothing to make the top quilt good to 20*.

    Or, they can use such a PG bag which might add enough additional warmth on the bottom to keep them happy with their UQ at 20*F, while also very easily keep them warm enough on top without depending on lots of extra clothing.

    Or, just using an even lighter 15 or 20* rated PG bag might still be enough ( experimentation would be needed ) to make the UQ good for another 5* or more on the bottom. As I said previously, when I have used my Cat's Meow as a quilt ( with my SuperShelter on bottom) and not been able to be quite warm enough, and then get in the bag mummy style, not only do I quickly warm up on top, but I also notice a good bit more warmth on my back. So I have not in any way quantified this yet. For all I know, that 5* PG bag might be good for a god bit more than 58* (by itself) on the bottom, meaning it's good for MORE than 10*. If that is the case, it would mean my Cat's Meow 20* bag might be good for as much as 10* worth of help on the bottom.

    I wish I had dragged it ( the Cat's Meow ) out there on the 58* morning to see how it would do. But unless there is an unusual cold snap, I'll have to wait till next winter to play with this idea.

    But it just seems to me that, when considering down top quilts and pads and UQs and all of this stuff vs a PG sleeping bag, and all of the pros and cons of the two approaches, there might be another factor that I personally had not been considering. And that is that there is a bit of additional warmth( exact amount not yet known, but at least a bit) to be had from getting in a synthetic sleeping bag compared to an over quilt and probably compared to a down bag. Which might mean that you can use a thinner or fewer pads or even no pad at all to make the UQ suitable for warmer temps than could be achieved by using the UQ in combo with an OQ or down bag.

    It's just another variable that might be worth looking into as part of the total picture, especially for those who already use a sleeping bag, and especially a synthetic sleeping bag.
    Last edited by BillyBob58; 05-21-2008 at 21:27.
    For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us....that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
    Romans 8:18,21-22

  9. #19
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    Billy Bob, I think most of the increased warmth you experience when you crawl inside you bag (you must be related to Houdini) comes from using the hood, not much if any benefit at all from the compressed insulation on the down side. If you used a JRB hood or a Bozeman Mtn Balaclava with the bag quilt-style, I don't think you'd see much difference.

  10. #20
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    I think Billy Bob has a very good point & i agree.
    I have no doubt what so ever that there would be a very notable difference in having a sleeping bag between you & the hammock, even if it is compressed. Matter of fact, I'll guarantee it<G>.
    And i have no doubt that a synthetic bag would provide a better layer of warmth in this fashion than a similar down bag.
    maybe not a great amount, but some.

    A compressed layer of insulation is still going to going to be there & it will still account for a very thin layer of insulation value.
    And that's the point that Billy Bob was making.

    I work outdoors year round & i know the difference that a shirt lined w/ a very thin layer of sewn through synthetic insulation can make.

    Of course these thin layers have their limitations, but Billy Bob has already said that.
    don`t leave the CREATOR out of the creation!

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