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  1. #1
    Old Gorge Rat Hawk-eye's Avatar
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    Exclamation Hammock Product Services and design ethics ...

    Normally I'm pretty harden by what some people do in the business world as far as copyright infringements, taking credit for other peoples work with no credit to the rightful people ... I mean after all I've spend the last 30 years of my life dealing with companies in South America, Africa and Asia (China in particular). So normally I just do what I know is right and don't do business with those that do other wise and go on about my life ... However I just viewed a video that disturbs me because it involves our HF community and some folks I know rather well.

    When I have an issue in my business life I usually write an email and unload exactly how I feel ... helps to vent ... then delete it and write a more professional version to send. So I hope this comes across as the more professional version of my initial feelings on this matter.

    Back in April of 2010 2QZQ made a mod to my HH that is now called the MOD 4, This was the second one she made since she'd done it the month prior to Tim's hammock.

    Here's my review of the Mod done when I got back from overseas in April 2010



    I found a product review on YouTube by UKHammocks in GB showing the Mod they make complete with the triangle patch in the end, the bag to hold the netting ... in summary the very service and design developed by 2QZQ ... and if you watch the video and visit their website there is no reference to who actually developed this first. When I saw the video and pointed this out I was accused of "trolling" other people's posts.

    Here's his (Matt) video of his product service ... you can check when he was offering it, you can compare when he started ...



    It's not wrong to improve on something and offer it for sale ... but in my humble opinion it is just wrong to directly copy something and not even acknowledge the efforts of those that really did the development and pass it off has your own design.

    That's really not what this community is best known for.
    Last edited by Hawk-eye; 08-18-2012 at 15:28.

    WARNING: Will discuss Rhurbarb Strawberry Pie and Livermush at random.


    "A democracy is two wolves and a small lamb voting on what to have for dinner.
    Freedom under a constitutional republic is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." ... B.Franklin


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  2. #2
    Senior Member ninjahamockman's Avatar
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    Yeah I agree I am a huge person of giving credit to the maker of a mod.
    Bacon and Camping makes me happy.

    "When life gives you lemons throw them back"
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    I camp in bear country and I am a bear Burrito.

  3. #3
    babelfish5's Avatar
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    Yeah... at least give the credit to the people who have done the effort to develop it.
    "Once you start down the Dark Path, forever will it dominate your destiny." - Yoda


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  4. #4
    BrianWillan's Avatar
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    When Hennessy started offering side entry zipper models on all of their hammocks, I didn't hear anyone complain that they ripped off 2QZQ's modifications.

    Granted UKhammocks is a UK based company and serves the European market primarily, but adding a zipper to a hammock is hardly revolutionary. I'm all for free market capitalism, so the market will dictate who succeeds and who doesn't. I think UKhammocks' customers are happy that they can get access to the most popular cottage vendors (Warbonnet and Dutchware). So if their customers are asking if they can do zipper mods on Hennessy Hammocks, they would be foolish to turn away business.

    Cheers

    Brian
    Good judgment comes from experience, and often experience comes from bad judgment. - Unknown

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  5. #5
    Senior Member angrysparrow's Avatar
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    One thing that comes to mind when I read this thread is another older thread here. It shows where UKHammocks literally copied a peak bag photo from the 2QZQ website (taken in their yard) and used it on the UKH website to advertise their own competing version of the same bag. They had the issue pointed out to them, and of course had to take it down and apologize. But it does indicate that there's some prior evidence of intent to copy, from the same company even.

    No doubt that zippers on hammocks aren't a protected idea, nor is there a lock on installing zippers as a service. Especially if there are real differences in the installation details or materials used. I'm sure there's a market for it in the UK, if only to avoid trans-oceanic shipping. But not giving credit to the source of the idea is another matter entirely.

    I think it would have been a more honest approach for them to simply say something like 'UKHammocks recently discovered a zipper-modification service being offered in the U.S. by 2QZQ. We're proud to now be able to offer this service to UK customers'. Who knows, if they had asked in advance, 2QZQ might have even worked with them to refer UK or EU inquires directly to them...and vice versa.

    But not asking, and not even giving a tip o' the hat worth of credit...well, I agree with Hawk-eye. It seems disrespectful.
    “I think that when the lies are all told and forgot the truth will be there yet. It dont move about from place to place and it dont change from time to time. You cant corrupt it any more than you can salt salt.” - Cormac McCarthy

  6. #6
    2Questions's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianWillan View Post
    When Hennessy started offering side entry zipper models on all of their hammocks, I didn't hear anyone complain that they ripped off 2QZQ's modifications.
    ZQ here...we offered our first design to Tom Hennessy before we started doing the zipper mods ourselves(February of 2008). He wasn't interested in zippers at the time. I guess our idea had unrealized market value for him after all.
    Last edited by 2Questions; 08-18-2012 at 18:59.
    2QZQ Hammock Specialties
    Specializing in:
    Hennessy Hammock zipper modifications
    Sewn on Tarp doors, Pole Pockets, and Grizz Beaks
    Ridgeline and gear organizers, peak storage bags, UQ protectors,
    and More!

    "The difference between genius and stupidity is.... genius has its limits" - Albert Einstein

  7. #7
    Old Gorge Rat Hawk-eye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by angrysparrow View Post
    One thing that comes to mind when I read this thread is another older thread here. It shows where UKHammocks literally copied a peak bag photo from the 2QZQ website (taken in their yard) and used it on the UKH website to advertise their own competing version of the same bag. They had the issue pointed out to them, and of course had to take it down and apologize. But it does indicate that there's some prior evidence of intent to copy, from the same company even.

    No doubt that zippers on hammocks aren't a protected idea, nor is there a lock on installing zippers as a service. Especially if there are real differences in the installation details or materials used. I'm sure there's a market for it in the UK, if only to avoid trans-oceanic shipping. But not giving credit to the source of the idea is another matter entirely.

    I think it would have been a more honest approach for them to simply say something like 'UKHammocks recently discovered a zipper-modification service being offered in the U.S. by 2QZQ. We're proud to now be able to offer this service to UK customers'. Who knows, if they had asked in advance, 2QZQ might have even worked with them to refer UK or EU inquires directly to them...and vice versa.

    But not asking, and not even giving a tip o' the hat worth of credit...well, I agree with Hawk-eye. It seems disrespectful.
    EXACTLY ... better put than I stated above ...

    WARNING: Will discuss Rhurbarb Strawberry Pie and Livermush at random.


    "A democracy is two wolves and a small lamb voting on what to have for dinner.
    Freedom under a constitutional republic is a well armed lamb contesting the vote." ... B.Franklin


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  8. #8
    Senior Member Just Jeff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrianWillan View Post
    When Hennessy started offering side entry zipper models on all of their hammocks, I didn't hear anyone complain that they ripped off 2QZQ's modifications.
    If you haven't heard anyone complain about Tom Hennessy's mods, then you simply weren't paying attention. He didn't offer a zippered model until after the Blackbird and 2QZQ were so successful. He didn't offer a two-layer model until other two-layer models (mostly Brandon's) started taking his business. Same as the zipper...he realized other folks' ideas had profit potential for him, so he took his market share back with their ideas.

    This is exactly the reason a lot of the older members don't post their ideas here any more. Too many people started profiting from them without even giving credit. I often wonder these days how many good ideas are out there that the forum will never see because of behavior like this.

    "Oh, it's just capitalism," they say. No, it's intellectual theft. Capitalism isn't based on theft, even if it's legal b/c of the patent laws.

    Some people still care about honor and integrity. I'm thankful a lot of them are in this community.
    “Republics are created by the virtue, public spirit, and intelligence of the citizens. They fall when the wise are banished from the public councils because they dare to be honest, and the profligate are rewarded because they flatter the people, in order to betray them.” ~Judge Joseph Story

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  9. #9
    Senior Member
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    When someone copies someone elses work, without giving credit to the R&D person, I think that is lying, dishonest, then I wonder what else the copier might lie about. I will not buy from them.

    I designed some dresses for people with shoulder injuries. I was wearing one of the tops I designed, I had a vender at an outdoor market accuse me of stealing her idea, I told her I designed the garments 10 years before, how long had she been making them? That was the end of that discussion.

    Thank you for pointing this out to the members of this web site.

    I sew, however I am thinking about having 2Q & ZQ do a mod on my HH. I recently found where my rainfly that I have used all of 6 times, always put away clean and dry has the finish coming off of the back. It is just a year old, I am not a happy camper.
    I am going to purchase a different Hammock, I do not care to be so enclosed while I am sleeping. I think the HH is going bye-bye.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Mustardman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Jeff View Post
    This is exactly the reason a lot of the older members don't post their ideas here any more. Too many people started profiting from them without even giving credit. I often wonder these days how many good ideas are out there that the forum will never see because of behavior like this.
    Very well said, and this is definitely one of the reasons I tapered off in my posting to hammock forums. In the beginning, there was so much innovation taking place - the different tarp designs, the amazing bridge hammock threads, the introduction of whoopie slings and the massive experimentation with different types of quilts, the crazy suspensions people dreamed up. It was absolutely abuzz with the DIY spirit and the great innovations that came from it. It was a really awesome time and I was trying new ideas and messing around with stuff left and right, and learning a ton from people who were sharing their ideas freely, for all of us to use on our own.

    I feel like that time is passed now - I am glad to see hammock camping has exploded so much in the last four or five years, but I sort of miss the "glory days" where you could post a cool idea here, like say the Bishop Bag, and when people started making them, they would keep that name and give credit to the guy who came up with the idea.

    The commercial feeling to it, the sense of entitlement that I've seen some people exhibit, the "me before everybody else" attitude that sometimes gets shown... it really reminds me how awesome those early days were. I just wish I had been able to be a part of it even earlier than I was.

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