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  1. #11
    BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cannibal View Post
    Well first of all, I didn't vent on purpose.

    It probably just slipped off during the night. That particular UQ was very much a prototype and there were some weaknesses compared with the final production model. Most notably being that it didn't 'cup' the shoulder the way the down Yetis do; hence the slippage.

    I'd have to weigh it, or find the old thread. Honestly, I think that thread is one of the ones I deleted when I had a fit of anger at some point shortly after I got home from the AT (it's a bugger of a transition back to the "real world"). However, I really want to say that quilt was right at a pound (16oz). I'll throw it on the scale tonight to be sure.

    I realize this is an AHE thread too and tried to focus more on the material than the construction. I do think the XP was very close to down in terms of insulation. At the same time, I have a theory on why the top quilts made from the same material aren't getting the same results. As we all know, CBS generally comes from gaps between the hammock and the quilt. The Yetis, as well as the KAQ I have, both seal-up extremely nice to the hammock. I can only assume Paul's continuation of the KAQs function and fit nearly, or better than the originals cause Paul's work does not suck! But a top quilt? They don't really seal, they just drape and synthetics don't drape half as well as down quilts IMO. *I think*, that synthetic insulation works great when it's against, or very nearly, your skin. It traps the heat quickly in that situation. When draped and pockets of air form, I believe it isn't nearly as efficient. Made more exaggerated by a sleeper that tends to roll around....like a groundling. While I am still a semi-fan of synthetic insulation in underquilts, I am pretty exclusively a down-guy for my top quilts. I have a couple of synthetic top quilts, but they are strictly loaners. I don't think a synthetic top quilt, gram for gram, can take on a down top quilt.

    And yes, for a top quilt in that picture I was using a very old synthetic bag. If memory serves, it was a Coleman bag. It was either a 0 or 15 bag. Plus a base shirt, plus a cotton shirt, plus a fleece pullover, plus a hoodie, plus...you get the idea.
    I think you are on to something about CS TQ function vs UQ, particularly for groundlings. That was the conditions I was reading about last night, with results not nearly as good as we have had with that CS UQ. These were groundlings using CS TQs, and they were having to use much higher weights for warmth at 30. They were side sleeping and most likely changing position frequently, the way folks on the ground tend to do. They probably were not getting near as good of a "drape" as they did with nice down TQs.

    More info on the comparison of CS to down in an UQ, per Paul's IMO conservative ratings:

    Flame thrower 40X54 UQ with 9 oz of 800 down, total wt 16 oz:
    This quilt is taking most users easily to 30 degrees and some even lower. So far we have heard of one user hitting 19 and they said they were toasty.
    Jarbridge 42X58 ( a tad bigger than FT ) with 1 layer of 6 oz/sq.yd standard CS XP ( ? ) total wt 20 oz:
    3 Season Rated to the 30's for most users
    But several folks here have gone lower and I think 1 person said they were warm at 9F?

    So, basically the same rating from Paul, the JB is a tad bigger than the FT and weighs 4 oz more. Again, to me, that is not a huge dif.

    So OP Nathan, I don't think - at least for UQs - that warmth to weight is a big enough reason to choose down, especially if giving any consideration to performance when damp. Or if sleeping out in a snow storm with no tarp! And of course there is a pretty good initial cost advantage to the Jarbridge.

    Much smaller pack volume would be a good reason to choose the down for those with smaller packs. And maybe greater longevity.

    Edit and PS: Cannibal, I have not been able to verify any difference elsewhere, but I guess Paul knows, and he offers that Apex upgrade that he says is 5-10 warmer than the normal XP in your quilt. If that proves to be the case, then the difference between down and CS shrinks even more.
    Last edited by BillyBob58; 11-02-2012 at 17:28.
    For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us....that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
    Romans 8:18,21-22

  2. #12
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    Thanks for all the info. Still trying to digest all of it. I'm leaning towards the synthetic for the cost and humidity benefits. But I'm going to start taking my son next year and I'll probably be carrying some/most of his gear as well for the first few years so low weight/bulk is important as well. Although he probably won't be coming along when temps are below 50-60 at night so his insulation should be lighter or just stick him on my thermarest prolite.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Law Dawg (ret)'s Avatar
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    Down Vs. synthetic was the dilemma I faced after discovering that ground pad hammock insulation is of the Devil.

    I bought an AHE New River upgraded to 0 degrees and it worked like magic in the back yard. Until my first motorcycle shake down in fact...far too bulky and a bit too heavy. I'd recommend the down Flamethrower for that reason and down sleeping gear is just as comfortable as it gets IMO (the whole point of hammock camping). Wish Paul made a full length one with 0 degree option though.
    Mark is the name and If there is more than one way to understand what I just said....I meant the good one.

    Earth First! We'll dirt bike ride the other planets later.

  4. #14
    New Member JC77's Avatar
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    So what is the real decision? I am also looking to buy the Jarbridge, and looking to possibly upgrade to the 4 season or Apex Climashield. I would like to know if the upgrade is worth it or should I stick with the rated 3 season and just go with extra insulation via my clothes or go with the upgrade? Please help.
    "Hanging is soul therapy" -Jeff

  5. #15
    BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JC77 View Post
    So what is the real decision? I am also looking to buy the Jarbridge, and looking to possibly upgrade to the 4 season or Apex Climashield. I would like to know if the upgrade is worth it or should I stick with the rated 3 season and just go with extra insulation via my clothes or go with the upgrade? Please help.
    I'd call Paul and discuss it. It doesn't seem to me there are any big differences in XP and Apex specs, but Paul my know of some difs.
    For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us....that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
    Romans 8:18,21-22

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