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  1. #21
    BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2Questions View Post
    Ah, yes...sounds right, thanks.
    Yeah, sorry, space blanket is correct. For all I know it my also stand for space blanket, I need to look at the acronym page. And it is also a VB ( vapor barrier), at least the ones I have used seem to be.

    Edit:"it my also stand for space blanket, " should have said "it might also stand for SLEEPING BAG"!
    Last edited by BillyBob58; 12-02-2008 at 10:05.
    For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us....that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
    Romans 8:18,21-22

  2. #22
    BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Youngblood View Post
    Brandon,

    My opinion is that there isn't an additive temperature improvement by adding a vapor barrier to breathable insulation. I think it is a multiplier that you apply. ................
    So with that, if you add just a vapor barrier to a hammock you might only get a degree or so of improvement. If you add it with 1 inch of breathable down underneath you would get a 5 degree improvement or 10 degrees with 2 inches, etc.

    But this is just the way I have it figured based on what I have seen, experienced, and surmised. I don't have references to back it up. I haven't seen it characterized this way, at least I don't recall seeing it.
    So, what about totally stopping evaporative cooling, especially with VB clothing? How much of a factor would that be? So not only would you be keeping moisture out of your insulation, but you would block an endless recurrence of evaporative cooling, even with no insulation. So it would seem that might be a considerable factor. After all, that is how an air conditioner works, or an evaporative cooler on a roof top in Arizona.

    Of course, what I don't know is if that effect would be greatly reduced at very cold temps. Where you would not likely have sweat issues. No sweat to evaporate and cool. But you do have insensible perspiration, endlessly evaporating, cooling and going into your insulation.

    I often wonder if the reflective aspect is a significant factor in the quickly noticeable dif I see when adding a SB to my Super S. Or if it is all just vapor barrier.
    Last edited by BillyBob58; 12-02-2008 at 10:06.
    For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us....that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
    Romans 8:18,21-22

  3. #23
    Senior Member
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    I use a cuben speer type H. I use a down UQ.On the underside of the UQ I have sewed a light (.35 I believe),cuben bottom. my UQ is about 2/3. (a cut down Nanatuk down.) the cuben H .acts as VB of ccourse, the cuben under the UQ acts as a very effective wind barrier. seems too work well, but havn't had id to very low temps. gnome

  4. #24
    Senior Member animalcontrol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Youngblood View Post
    So with that, if you add just a vapor barrier to a hammock you might only get a degree or so of improvement. If you add it with 1 inch of breathable down underneath you would get a 5 degree improvement or 10 degrees with 2 inches, etc.
    I have always used CCF pads for under insulation and I am now switching to the UQ world so I'm trying to wrap my brain around this VB topic...
    If I have a double bottom hammock, could I use a single layer if Sil (a DIY version of Jeff's Pack Cover that I carry anyway) in between the hammcock layers as a VB?
    This would place my VB 1. not against me 2. in between me and the UQ.
    Thoughts?
    "Every day is a new day to a better future"
    "Of all the things that matter, that really and truly matter, working more efficiently and getting more done is not among them." ~ Mike Dooley
    "What if I told you that you couldn't have anymore of anything... No more friends, no more money, no more anything, until you first got happy with what you have?"~ Mike Dooley
    "The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing." ~ Socrates

  5. #25
    GrizzlyAdams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by animalcontrol View Post
    I have always used CCF pads for under insulation and I am now switching to the UQ world so I'm trying to wrap my brain around this VB topic...
    If I have a double bottom hammock, could I use a single layer if Sil (a DIY version of Jeff's Pack Cover that I carry anyway) in between the hammcock layers as a VB?
    This would place my VB 1. not against me 2. in between me and the UQ.
    Thoughts?
    that would do the job.

    Grizz

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by gnome View Post
    I use a cuben speer type H. I use a down UQ.On the underside of the UQ I have sewed a light (.35 I believe),cuben bottom. my UQ is about 2/3. (a cut down Nanatuk down.) the cuben H .acts as VB of ccourse, the cuben under the UQ acts as a very effective wind barrier. seems too work well, but havn't had id to very low temps. gnome
    With the hammock material being a vapor barrier you aren't going to be passing moisture through your underquilt so you don't need it to be breathable, except to get it to loft and possibly remove any moisture that might find its way in. Heck, with a hammock that is a vapor barrier you can't realize the advantages of breathable underside insulation in warmish conditions anyway. Sounds like what you did is a win-win situation as you don't use it with a hammock that has breathable insulation. If you ever want to use that underquilt with a hammock that has breathable insulation then the cuben bottom will likely be a problem.
    Youngblood AT2000

  7. #27
    BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Youngblood View Post
    With the hammock material being a vapor barrier you aren't going to be passing moisture through your underquilt so you don't need it to be breathable, except to get it to loft and possibly remove any moisture that might find its way in. Heck, with a hammock that is a vapor barrier you can't realize the advantages of breathable underside insulation in warmish conditions anyway. Sounds like what you did is a win-win situation as you don't use it with a hammock that has breathable insulation. If you ever want to use that underquilt with a hammock that has breathable insulation then the cuben bottom will likely be a problem.
    Also, that UQ could have a 100% waterproof shell ( totally surrounding the down, not just thre bottom layer), with only allowances ( some how) for compressing into a stuff sack and drying out if it manages to gets wet. IOW, the down could be treated like the down in the Exped Downmat. It could be pretty much impervious to fog, rain or condensation of perspiration.

    In fact, a quilt made in this fashion would be it's own VB, not needing the VB effect of the cuben hammock fabric.

    Of course, getting the air into it for lofting up, and getting the air back out for compression into the stuff sack, would be factors to be overcome. Also, if it did get wet despite all of this, you would have to have a means of exposing the down to dry air. So probably, we are realistically only going to be able to mostly cover with a WP barrier. A completely separate, removable shell comes to mind, but that is added weight. But so is a sock and such.

    And folks might not like the feel of it, especially if it is warm weather. But, if you are using a VB hammock anyway?

    Just rambling!
    For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us....that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
    Romans 8:18,21-22

  8. #28
    BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by animalcontrol View Post
    I have always used CCF pads for under insulation and I am now switching to the UQ world so I'm trying to wrap my brain around this VB topic...
    If I have a double bottom hammock, could I use a single layer if Sil (a DIY version of Jeff's Pack Cover that I carry anyway) in between the hammcock layers as a VB?
    This would place my VB 1. not against me 2. in between me and the UQ.
    Thoughts?
    So far, your CCF pads have already been your VB, though tightly against your back. That may or may not have caused you back sweat issues.

    With my double layer Claytor, I am pretty tight against both layers, top layer pressed down onto second layer, as far as I can tell. If that second layer was a VB, I also wonder if it would work like a SB suspended on top of my OCF SS pad. That pad and SB contacts my single layer hammock bottom, but not nearly as tightly against my back as a pad would be between my Claytor layers or I suppose my Claytor bottom layer if a pad is not present.

    So it is a good question as to how a VB bottom layer ( or single layer for that matter) would work. As compared to the SB used in a SS. I think it would be a good bit more snug against your back than the SB in a SS, but would that be a positive, negative or neutral?

    Although most of us SS users ( posting here anyway) report nothing but benefits from adding the SB ( VB ) to the SS, there has been at least one person recently that had nothing but problems condensation wise, with or without the SB/VB. Never a problem for me, though.
    For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us....that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
    Romans 8:18,21-22

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by BillyBob58 View Post
    Also, that UQ could have a 100% waterproof shell ( totally surrounding the down, not just thre bottom layer), with only allowances ( some how) for compressing into a stuff sack and drying out if it manages to gets wet. IOW, the down could be treated like the down in the Exped Downmat. It could be pretty much impervious to fog, rain or condensation of perspiration.

    In fact, a quilt made in this fashion would be it's own VB, not needing the VB effect of the cuben hammock fabric.

    Of course, getting the air into it for lofting up, and getting the air back out for compression into the stuff sack, would be factors to be overcome. Also, if it did get wet despite all of this, you would have to have a means of exposing the down to dry air. So probably, we are realistically only going to be able to mostly cover with a WP barrier. A completely separate, removable shell comes to mind, but that is added weight. But so is a sock and such.

    And folks might not like the feel of it, especially if it is warm weather. But, if you are using a VB hammock anyway?

    Just rambling!

    pretty sure this would do all that

    "grizz, here's an idea i've been throwing around for a down uq with a sil shell.

    outer layer shell: sil, inner layer shell:netting or breathable ripstop, second inner layer shell sil sewn only on 3 sides and left open on one end to flip inside-out leaving the breathable shell is exposed for drying. this way, when inside out it has one breathable side, but when right side out, it's sil on both sides. so you have a built in vb, and a sil outer shell for more water resistence."

  10. #30
    BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by warbonnetguy View Post
    pretty sure this would do all that

    "grizz, here's an idea i've been throwing around for a down uq with a sil shell.

    outer layer shell: sil, inner layer shell:netting or breathable ripstop, second inner layer shell sil sewn only on 3 sides and left open on one end to flip inside-out leaving the breathable shell is exposed for drying. this way, when inside out it has one breathable side, but when right side out, it's sil on both sides. so you have a built in vb, and a sil outer shell for more water resistence."
    Yeah, right. I forgot about that post already. Though actually I think I didn't fully understand it until I read it again real slow.
    For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us....that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
    Romans 8:18,21-22

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