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  1. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by d-p View Post
    Woody,

    My first thought after reading about your Bivy experience was ... that happened to me also experimenting with Bivys.
    This happens with Bivys because ... the non-breathing waterproof fabric is to the outside with coldest air temp creating condesation toward the heat source.

    I'm not sure there is solution with Bivys because to minimize condensation using vapor barriors, one needs to keep the non-breathing fabric (VB) closest to the highest heat source (you, at 98*) while keeping one's insulation nearest the outside cold temps.

    So, having the vapor next to you or your 2nd layer, will maximize vapor barrier technology thus keeping your gear the warmest with the lightest weight which is www.dplightweightbackpackinggear.com total focus.

    We aren't sure how much heat retaining temperature one gains using vapor barriers, but for the average person, we are thinking at least 15*.


    Happy trailzzzzzzzzzzzz
    dp Dave
    d-p, thanks for the primer on VB technology. I'm trying to assess how this applies to my intended use, which is to insert it between the layers of my hammock for under insulation in conjunction pads. If it's best to have the VB closest to me, then I assume I should place the pads under the VB. My pad system is a partially inflated Thermarest Pro or Exped Downmat 9 for colder temps, with half a Z-Lite accordion ccf pad crossways under my upper torso for shoulder insulation.

    Is my assumption correct about where to place the VB, and would it really add much? I don't need it for top insulation, so I don't plan to crawl inside it with my down sleeping bag on top.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drift Woody View Post
    d-p, thanks for the primer on VB technology. I'm trying to assess how this applies to my intended use, which is to insert it between the layers of my hammock for under insulation in conjunction pads. If it's best to have the VB closest to me, then I assume I should place the pads under the VB. My pad system is a partially inflated Thermarest Pro or Exped Downmat 9 for colder temps, with half a Z-Lite accordion ccf pad crossways under my upper torso for shoulder insulation.

    Is my assumption correct about where to place the VB, and would it really add much? I don't need it for top insulation, so I don't plan to crawl inside it with my down sleeping bag on top.
    Drift, if you are using a pad, most camping pads are already VBs. Some people add a pad to an under quilt sometimes. As far as blocking vapor from traveling down into and condensing inside the UQ, the pad shoud already take care of that issue.

    IOW, I can't see much benefit of adding a VB layer under you either on top of a pad or under a pad. That would just sort of be like putting two VB layers under you. Unless maybe the VB layer was way wider than the pad? But mostly does not seem worth fooling with.

    Though I can think of one possible advantage over pads alone to using either VB clothing or a VB bag liner, which it seems you do not plan to do. Some folks have a lot of sweat issues when using a pad, with enough sweat that it gets into whatever clothing they sleep in and or into their top insulation. And that right there is enough by itself to put them off of pad use.

    But if you were wearing VB clothing, any sweat produced would be trapped inside the VB with you, and only whatever thin as possible liner layer you are wearing under the VB would be effected. Plus, hopefully, as your skill increased you would learn to recognize signs of over heating early, vent and keep any sweat to a minimum anyway. But either way, any sweat produced can't get into your insulation. And it would add a lot of warmth ( does for me any way) to your top insulation by blocking evaporative cooling and keep it much drier, a concern on longer, colder, cloudy trips when ability to dry in the sun is limited.

    But, as far as adding another VB under you in addition to your pads, and getting any possible VB benefits added to your under insulation, seems redundant. The pad should already be performing those VB functions.
    Last edited by BillyBob58; 03-12-2013 at 09:30.
    For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us....that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
    Romans 8:18,21-22

  3. #83

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    Thanks for the explanation; I will bring that bivy and use it only in conditions where my other insulation may be inadequate!

  4. #84
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    My Thoughts on Vapor Barriers

    This is a good topic/group to pose my question which is partially related to this discussion:
    My next DIY will be a sock of some sort. I'm mostly concerned about keeping my down UG dry from blown rain.
    I was originally thinking silnylon but that would effectively create a VB on the outside of my insulation - not a great idea. Should I be looking at waterproof & breathable sock instead?
    That seems like the best of both worlds:
    1-when temps are mild my insulation & sock are breathable while protecting the insulation from outside moisture And,
    2-when temps drop, adding a VB on the inside close to my skin, i get the benefits of a VB plus my insulation is protected from inside moisture (condensating vapor) as well.

    Thoughts?

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by tylojuky View Post
    This is a good topic/group to pose my question which is partially related to this discussion:
    My next DIY will be a sock of some sort. I'm mostly concerned about keeping my down UG dry from blown rain.
    I was originally thinking silnylon but that would effectively create a VB on the outside of my insulation - not a great idea. Should I be looking at waterproof & breathable sock instead?
    That seems like the best of both worlds:
    1-when temps are mild my insulation & sock are breathable while protecting the insulation from outside moisture And,
    2-when temps drop, adding a VB on the inside close to my skin, i get the benefits of a VB plus my insulation is protected from inside moisture (condensating vapor) as well.

    Thoughts?
    Sounds about right, except:
    Your breathed out vapor(from you nose and mouth) will be the largest source inside a sock. Adding a VB inside won't help that. Even with a breathable sock, you will need to keep the vapor from breathing in mind. Just something that needs to be accounted for.
    For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us....that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
    Romans 8:18,21-22

  6. #86
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    My Thoughts on Vapor Barriers

    Yes - I'm thinking there needs to be some "adjustable breathability" in the sock. Say a zipper to open up near my head or something like that when the conditions warrant.

  7. #87
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    My Thoughts on Vapor Barriers

    I got an "opportunity" to try this last night. I went to camp with my Blue Kazoo which has proven to keep me warm down to 30 if I wear fleece - no lower.The forecast changed and I was looking at 19 by morning. I had just read this post a few days before so I felt I could manage the night.

    I pulled out my space blanket to use as a make shift VB. I remember reading that getting too warm would cause too must sweat so I bravely went to bed with just thin poly-pro long underwear. I forgot my loose wool socks so I was bare foot.

    When I got in my bag I instantly felt warmer than I expected. In fact the only thing that was cold was my arm where the space blanket didn't quite wrap all the way around me. I stayed warm all night but the experience was ... "moist" - especially my bare feet. I could feel water droplets on the inside of the space blanket.

    For me, I would never plan to sleep this way. Getting up in the morning was unbelievably cold - the only thing that comes close to that kind of cold is falling in an icy river.

    Plus, after spending all night like that, my whole body smelled like a foot.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by tylojuky View Post
    I got an "opportunity" to try this last night. I went to camp with my Blue Kazoo which has proven to keep me warm down to 30 if I wear fleece - no lower.The forecast changed and I was looking at 19 by morning. I had just read this post a few days before so I felt I could manage the night.

    I pulled out my space blanket to use as a make shift VB. I remember reading that getting too warm would cause too must sweat so I bravely went to bed with just thin poly-pro long underwear. I forgot my loose wool socks so I was bare foot.

    When I got in my bag I instantly felt warmer than I expected. In fact the only thing that was cold was my arm where the space blanket didn't quite wrap all the way around me. I stayed warm all night but the experience was ... "moist" - especially my bare feet. I could feel water droplets on the inside of the space blanket.

    For me, I would never plan to sleep this way. Getting up in the morning was unbelievably cold - the only thing that comes close to that kind of cold is falling in an icy river.

    Plus, after spending all night like that, my whole body smelled like a foot.
    Hey, great experiment Tylo! Sounds like an overall negative experience for you, especially considering the foot smell. I have never had that particular downside, but I mostly use VB clothing with some kind of thin synthetic liner. Last couple of years I have used the Stephenson's Warmlite VB clothing top and socks with built in fuzzy stuff lining. Any way, never had any stink for some reason. Almost sounds like mold or mildew, which you would expect from moisture but it would take quite a while. That's wild.

    But I do see a big positive result to your experiment, even though you would never repeat it. Using the Blue Kazoo PLUS fleece, you have been warm to about 30, and no lower.

    With the space blanket/VB, (and no fleece, right?) you were at least adequately warm at 19F. That is quite an improvement in warmth. In fact, that much moisture might be telling us that you over heated and needed to vent a bit, maybe. Sounds like you might have actually been sweating at 19F, or maybe earlier in the night before it got that cold? Plus, any sweat or moisture you did produce was kept out of your down bag.

    This all makes me wonder if you had had VB clothing, wearing your usual fleece over that clothing, just how low of a temp you could have taken that Blue Kazoo before you got cold? If you went to 19F OK without fleece, is that right?

    I can not stand the feel of a VB on my skin without some sort of liner, preferably WL Fuzzystuff. I know what you mean about that shock to the system when you come out of the VB. But for me it just lasts for a split second till I can get some warm clothing on. That's another reason I prefer the VB clothing, I keep wearing it for a while after I get up. Maybe until the sun comes up and it warms up some. Actually, I have even hiked in the VB and no or minimal other insulation.

    Still, very interesting report, thanks for testing!

    P.S.
    I just realized you were wearing polypro longjohns, is that right? When I used to use polypro, especially after a few months of wearing and washing, it would stink like crazy, especially when damp. Actually, if memory serves, it was sort of a foot smell.
    Last edited by BillyBob58; 11-27-2013 at 20:46.
    For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us....that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
    Romans 8:18,21-22

  9. #89
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    Billy,
    I posted that from camp when the experience was fresh in my mind - so my opinions on some aspects may change over time. The memory today is already better than the experience at the time

    You bring up some good thoughts in your post. I'd like to comment on them after having a restful night's sleep (at home):
    Quote Originally Posted by BillyBob58 View Post
    Sounds like an overall negative experience for you
    To the contrary: The fact that I didn't freeze my keister off at 19-degrees wearing only thin underwear in an old Blue Kazoo is an overall "win". I've read about VB usage for years but never tried it personally. In this case, I found myself in a spot where that seemed the best course and it definitely gave me the ability to sleep in semi-comfort compared to the alternatives I had available at the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by BillyBob58 View Post
    I do see a big positive result to your experiment, even though you would never repeat it.
    I agree completely. The relative success of my experiment using less-than-optimal equipment says a lot. I didn't mean to imply I'd never repeat it. I meant to say I'd never plan to rely on a space blanket for warmth while otherwise being unprepared for the temperature.

    Quote Originally Posted by BillyBob58 View Post
    that much moisture might be telling us that you over heated and needed to vent a bit, maybe. Sounds like you might have actually been sweating at 19F, or maybe earlier in the night before it got that cold?
    I wondered the same thing. I never "felt hot" but you don't know you're sweating when you're asleep. You just wake up and realize you were. So there may be something to that. I can tell you there was no in-between. Either I was comfortably warm or, if there was ANY air flow, I was frigid (due to the moisture) so the thought of venting is a bit unnerving. If I had a proper VB then I could vent between the VB and insulation instead of letting the air in between me and the VB. That may be what you're referring to and would certainly be less shocking at the time.


    Quote Originally Posted by BillyBob58 View Post
    I can not stand the feel of a VB on my skin without some sort of liner, preferably WL Fuzzystuff.
    Only my feet were bare and, yes, they were "slimy" and a little cold - not painful but enough to notice. With my make-shift VB there could have been a little leakage that contributed to the chill. I didn't notice the moisture on the rest of my skin due to the thin underwear I was wearing.
    The idea of "VB clothing" is intriguing. I'm not familiar with that. Can you point me to some vendors/brands that you can recommend?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillyBob58 View Post
    I just realized you were wearing polypro longjohns, is that right? When I used to use polypro, especially after a few months of wearing and washing, it would stink like crazy, especially when damp. Actually, if memory serves, it was sort of a foot smell.
    Actually, I don't know what they're made of. The term "poly-pro" gives away my age. There was a time when that was the best there was for wicking/moisture control and lightweight warmth - I use that term to generically refer to thin, wicking underwear. I was actually wearing the lightweight version of what the military issues. I think it's polyester-based but I honestly don't know any more about it other than I like it as a base layer for controlling moisture.
    Regarding the "foot smell". I just noticed it right when I jerked my bag open in the morning and got that initial waft of air. This all occurred after 3 days/nights in deer camp so it's probably unfair to attribute any smell to any one thing. After hiking/hunting for that long, let's just say that personal hygiene might be a little lacking.

  10. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by tylojuky View Post
    The idea of "VB clothing" is intriguing. I'm not familiar with that. Can you point me to some vendors/brands that you can recommend?
    Stephenson' s Warmlite info on VB clothes is at http://warmlite.com/vapor-barrier-clothing

    I've never used their VB clothes but had one of their tents that I loved. I wouldn't hesitate to buy from them again.
    I also used their VB ideas to DIY VB clothing and a bag liner. It works.

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