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  1. #1
    Senior Member SteelToe's Avatar
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    Cross-ways Baffles?

    I've been looking into quilt construction for an upcoming DIY, and I see it is necessary for baffles to placed in quilts to manage the position of the down; without them, it will all settle to the bottom under the user. All the quilts I have seen run only one direction (side to side, or end to end) which would seem to still allow down to settle (since the bottom of a hammock is "dome" shaped).

    Has anyone tried to do a quilt with either criss-crossing baffles, or even a diagonal "cross ways" pattern between 0 and 90 degrees? Is this question even necessary?

    On a related note; does baffle width (quilt thickness) determine warmth, or is it more dependant on the weight of down put into a given volume (assuming it's not compressed). I've been having trouble figuring out how much down I should use and how thick I should expect for a 0deg rated quilt setup.

    TCB
    "We sit together, the mountain and I, until only the mountain remains."
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  2. #2
    Lost_Biker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteelToe View Post
    I've been looking into quilt construction for an upcoming DIY, and I see it is necessary for baffles to placed in quilts to manage the position of the down; without them, it will all settle to the bottom under the user. All the quilts I have seen run only one direction (side to side, or end to end) which would seem to still allow down to settle (since the bottom of a hammock is "dome" shaped).

    Has anyone tried to do a quilt with either criss-crossing baffles, or even a diagonal "cross ways" pattern between 0 and 90 degrees? Is this question even necessary?

    On a related note; does baffle width (quilt thickness) determine warmth, or is it more dependant on the weight of down put into a given volume (assuming it's not compressed). I've been having trouble figuring out how much down I should use and how thick I should expect for a 0deg rated quilt setup.

    TCB
    I've never seen any that are cross wise. Most underquilts are horizontal and topquilts are mostly vertical.

    Both height and width are important to baffle design and for temp range.

    you can use an underquilt calculator that will do all the math for you and figure the approximate temp range and the amount of down you need for each baffle.

    http://www.hammockforums.net/forum/s...ght=calculator by CatSplat is good and there are others. Do a search for calculators and you'll find them.
    I
    Last edited by Lost_Biker; 11-28-2012 at 19:50. Reason: appalling spelling
    I got in a fight one time with a really big guy, and he said, "I'm going to mop the floor with your face." I said, "You'll be sorry." He said, "Oh, yeah? Why?" I said, "Well, you won't be able to get into the corners very well."


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  3. #3
    Knotty's Avatar
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    I think what you are proposing adds a lot of complexity to the construction and probably not a lot of benefit. Still, it's good to think outside the box.
    Knotty
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  4. #4
    Senior Member SteelToe's Avatar
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    Another question(s) just occurred to me:

    1) The shell must be down proof to prevent down escaping, and the baffles are used to keep the down in place; why aren't the baffles made of down-proof material? From the numbers I've seen, mosquito netting isn't that much lighter than thin fabric.

    2) The interior surface must contact the hammock floor as much as possible, as tightly as possible for best insulation efficiency. Has anyone done a quilt with an elastic inside surface fabric? With a bit of stretch, a lot of material at the ends of the quilt could be eliminated without the worry of ripping seams when you load down the hammock.

    Thanks a bunch for the calculator link. It looks like 15oz should be plenty to properly insulate the backside of a human being . The hammock I'm planning to insulate is a bit...unorthdox in its shape and layout, so the thickness and down density used in the calcs is what I'm after. I'll figure out how to truss up the insulation and attach it once I'm further along on the hammock construction. For now, I can start building a rough bill of materials for the project and get $aving.

    First step accomplished, and already +100$ in the hole for down costs. Aside from cost, is there any benefit to doing a "hybrid" quilt with a layer of synthetic on the inside face of the hammock as a way to offset some down volume?

    I think what you are proposing adds a lot of complexity to the construction and probably not a lot of benefit
    Hey, that's what I do . Heck, my hammock design is a very narrow, deep bridge with arm holes cut at the shoulders, and two "stirrup" armrests that eliminate shoulder sqeeze. The concept worked great as a prototype, and version 2.0 will have seperate suspended footwells and Hennessey style velcro closure at the "groin." I'm an engineer, but I have a soft spot for unnecessarily complicated (but unique) designs

    TCB
    Last edited by SteelToe; 11-28-2012 at 22:07.
    "We sit together, the mountain and I, until only the mountain remains."
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  5. #5
    Lost_Biker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteelToe View Post
    Another question(s) just occurred to me:

    1) The shell must be down proof to prevent down escaping, and the baffles are used to keep the down in place; why aren't the baffles made of down-proof material? From the numbers I've seen, mosquito netting isn't that much lighter than thin fabric.

    2) The interior surface must contact the hammock floor as much as possible, as tightly as possible for best insulation efficiency. Has anyone done a quilt with an elastic inside surface fabric? With a bit of stretch, a lot of material at the ends of the quilt could be eliminated without the worry of ripping seams when you load down the hammock.

    Thanks a bunch for the calculator link. It looks like 15oz should be plenty to properly insulate the backside of a human being . The hammock I'm planning to insulate is a bit...unorthdox in its shape and layout, so the thickness and down density used in the calcs is what I'm after. I'll figure out how to truss up the insulation and attach it once I'm further along on the hammock construction. For now, I can start building a rough bill of materials for the project and get $aving.

    First step accomplished, and already +100$ in the hole for down costs. Aside from cost, is there any benefit to doing a "hybrid" quilt with a layer of synthetic on the inside face of the hammock as a way to offset some down volume?


    Hey, that's what I do . Heck, my hammock design is a very narrow, deep bridge with arm holes cut at the shoulders, and two "stirrup" armrests that eliminate shoulder sqeeze. The concept worked great as a prototype, and version 2.0 will have seperate suspended footwells and Hennessey style velcro closure at the "groin." I'm an engineer, but I have a soft spot for unnecessarily complicated (but unique) designs

    TCB
    1. the baffles are there to keep the down from migrating over to other baffles.

    2. not that I've ever seen yet. Although there's the stretch side hammock mod that is similar.

    3. Your welcome! The calculator makes it easy to change things around - lengths, width, baffle sizes, fill amount, etc.

    Yes, you can mix and match insulation - but that can add weight and bulk. The beauty of down is it's light, insulates very well, packs down small, etc.
    I got in a fight one time with a really big guy, and he said, "I'm going to mop the floor with your face." I said, "You'll be sorry." He said, "Oh, yeah? Why?" I said, "Well, you won't be able to get into the corners very well."


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  6. #6
    Boulderman's Avatar
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    Wilderness Logics uses 45 degree baffles on their summer series quilts. I think they're the only ones doing that.
    Potential is nothing without hard work.

  7. #7
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    Good questions...I've yet to make my "super quilt" as I've been having sewing machine issues (literally noticed that my replacement machine was delivered 20 minutes ago...hopped on here to get motivated again).

    My understanding on the issues you've presented is this;

    For the cross/diagonal baffle issue...diagonal isn't a bad idea but will still add a bit more work to it (measuring/cutting different sized baffles...ends might be a bit strange too) but anything else is just going to be a lot of extra work. Unless you're extremely concerned about gaining a couple ounces, overstuffing will solve the problem of potential down shifting within the baffles...though I believe it's not much of an issue as once the down is stationary it tends to clump and stick together so when down gets stuck in the baffles it sort of holds everything together...this is my best guess as to why people don't use smooth baffles on the inside.

    For my "super quilt" I had considered running a few channels with shockcord going in it (so that the shockcord isn't going through down and allowing an escape route for that white fluffy goodness) through the width of the quilt so that I could cinch it up a bit...not exactly what you're talking about but a similar method.

    As for mixing down and synthetic...down performs poorly when wet, synthetic tends to do much better there. Weight, warmth and packing efficiency all go in the favor of down though...the only reason I would consider mixing is if you're concerned about getting the down wet, in which case the paranoid can just pack it in a drybag or something.

  8. #8
    Mr. Arrowhead pgibson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boulderman View Post
    Wilderness Logics uses 45 degree baffles on their summer series quilts. I think they're the only ones doing that.

    Actually Te-Wa was the first to give this a shot with his quilts. Link to the thread where he introduced the concept a couple years ago. Post number 23 has the pictures of the design. Not sure if Mike is still doing his quilts that way or not.

    A lot of things that have been tried pre-date most of the current active membership here on the forums....but most anything you can dream up has been played with by someone at some point. Finding the original innovators is the tricky part.
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  9. #9
    netting is used for the baffles because it doesn't fray, if you used ripstop for instance you'd have to do something to the raw edges of the baffles to keep them from fraying inside the quilt and then coming apart. raw edges should only ever be inside a seam (unless the fabric doesn't fray...like netting). having them inside the quilt isn't good enough, it has to be inside an actual seam (or serged)

    running your baffles end to end will likely yield you the best results assuming you're doing a diff-cut, you have to deal with a much sharper curve if you run them side to side. the hammock has less curve end to end so it makes more sense to run the baffles in that direction.

  10. #10
    Senior Member SteelToe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgibson
    Actually Te-Wa was the first to give this a shot with his quilts. Link to the thread where he introduced the concept a couple years ago. Post number 23 has the pictures of the design. Not sure if Mike is still doing his quilts that way or not.
    Lots of good info in that thread; I hadn't thought that sleeping off-angle with the baffles would require them to "arc" under the occupant, flattening them in the process as they buckle to make the curve (unless you used arc-shaped baffles, of course *barf*). Te-wa was attempting to run the baffles along the occupant's axis, as opposed to the hammock's, to reduce collapse (and to look different, mainly ).

    Quote Originally Posted by warbonnetguy
    netting is used for the baffles because it doesn't fray
    Interesting, I'd always wondered why that specific material. I suppose it may dry faster than tighter-sealed ripstop baffles as well (maybe). I just thought it strange that a decidely down un-proof fabric was used to hold down in place; but clumping of the filler would reduce down migration greatly (not totally, though). Sounds like further pursuit in this vein is somewhat pointless; good to know

    My thinking was originally along the lines of a cellular-baffled quilt that controls down movment in both directions; I quickly realized it'd be a bit complicated to sew up, though! A folded-core quilt would be killer --not!


    Now I've gotten to thinking () about attaching the baffles in a "wavy" pattern with the inside panel a down-proof stretchy fabric (if that exists). My thinking is I would get a very close fit to the hammock by stretching the inner quilt wall around my body, and the wave-pattern baffles wouldn't get pulled taught and tear out (obviously the outer layer would need to be baggier than usual for the baffle thickness used). Shouldn't be any harder to attach, and would only use a few extra inches of mesh per baffle at most.

    One last question (for now, I promise!); All the underquilt designs I've seen are rectangular when laid out. With all the gram weenies around here in DIY, it seemed strange that the ends weren't frequently tapered to eliminate all that bunched up fabric/down. The quilt isn't load bearing, so there is no need to keep a continuous material cross section out there, right? A coffin-shaped (I hate coffin-hammock analogies...) flat pattern would seem to provide the most efficient use of material, like they do for top quilts--anybody done that on an UQ?

    TCB
    "We sit together, the mountain and I, until only the mountain remains."
    -Li Po

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