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  1. #21

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    I got 25 small wire gate carabiners from Lazer Designs about 8 months ago. You're right, the price drops significantly around 20 and around 50 'biners. Mine were purchased for tarp work, underquilt suspensions, etc but not for hammock suspension. The color on the carabiner itself has rubbed off a little on one that has hard use (the wire gate 'biner has a square cross section and the color came off on the hard edges). The name that was laser etched is holding up. Since I have my name on them, I use them as tags for my keys. Also gave a couple to DGrav and Dutch so they can chime in if they see this thread and are interested.

  2. #22
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    A 220 lb hanger (including gear) would have to approach an support angle of 5 degrees to reach the ratings on these biners.

    I figure my hang angle is never less than 20 degrees and that only puts about 1.5 kN on each support. (and I don't weigh 220 lbs with gear)

    Wrapping it around a tree essentially halves that number.

    4.9 kN rating should be fine for normal hanging.

    Climbing gear such as the Nano are made to withstand shock from falls. Kinda overkill for us.

    IANARP - WWYP

    Oh, and I would pony up for a couple at least and probably 6.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troglodyte View Post
    A 220 lb hanger (including gear) would have to approach an support angle of 5 degrees to reach the ratings on these biners.

    I figure my hang angle is never less than 20 degrees and that only puts about 1.5 kN on each support. (and I don't weigh 220 lbs with gear)

    Wrapping it around a tree essentially halves that number.

    4.9 kN rating should be fine for normal hanging.

    Climbing gear such as the Nano are made to withstand shock from falls. Kinda overkill for us.

    IANARP - WWYP

    Oh, and I would pony up for a couple at least and probably 6.
    Maybe I didn't make myself clear about my concerns when going to a lighter duty carabiner.

    I was concerned about any bending type forces that might occur if used on the end of webbing where the webbing is wrapped around a tree. Depending on how things line up, the carabiner might not just have in-line forces applied to it. The forces may try to bend the carabiner to fit the curve of the circumference of the tree. I don't think the strength of carabiners to this type of force is specified, I think it is a try it and see thing. (If you take a tree branch, just because you can't break it by pulling on it in opposite directions doesn't mean you can't break it by pulling on the ends while the center section is held against a tree.)

    Also, I'm not sure I agree with your statement that wrapping the webbing around the tree halves the forces on the carabiner. The friction between the tree bark and the webbing come in to play and can put most all of the force on the carabiner depending on how things are aligned. If the webbing slide around the tree and self-centered the split point, the carabiner in this case, then I would agree with the half force statement... when that doesn't happen I don't think that the forces are equally split.

    I hope they work fine, I just had a concern. I had concerns when folks first started talking about using the light weight Camp Nano Wire carabiners too.
    Youngblood AT2000

  4. #24
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    I share Youngblood's concern and think if you set it up just right, you can even make the Camp Nano biner fail (or at least damage it) because of bending. I used to use Camp Nano biners and one time, the biner left a pretty noticeable dent on a small diameter (maybe 4" diameter) tree I hung from. This leads me to believe that there are substantial bending moments involved, at least on small trees. If something on the tree pushed against the wire gate in such a situation situation, I can easily see the gate failing. The Camp Nano has an open gate rating of 9kN, so you probably wouldn't go to ground, but the gate would still be broken.

    On smaller trees, I started using multiple wraps, not so much to avoid damaging the biners, but to not damage the trees. That, of course, takes away the whole convenience of the biner, and you might as well use a four-wrap knot, or like I used to, a two-wrap knot 'cause I'm lazy.

    On the other hand, if used on bigger trees, or with multiple wraps on the small ones, I would personally not be concerned about the bending moment, even with the 4.9kN biners we are talking about here. But don't blame me if you fall...

  5. #25
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    Being the newbie here I'm not trying to ruffle anybody's feathers. Just trying to provide some numbers. Granted these are "textbook" numbers and do not take into consideration ANY variables.

    I apologize for not picking up on the bending concern. Coming from a little rappelling background knowingly side loading a biner was avoided at most every cost. I just won't do it. My background and how I wrap a tree excluded the thought of how others might do it. My apologies. Side loading a 5 kN biner would not be good. Schneiderlein you are right. Given the right conditions you can make anything fail. A knob of the tree on the gate would be bad...at least for the gate.

    And not to get into arguments of thoughts, feelings, and theories I will concede that you should always over-engineer everything and I am guilty of that many times over.

    When a perfectly fine honest-to-goodness climbing biner can be had for $7.00 at the local, slightly overpriced, outdoor shop, putting your peace of mind hanging off of an "accessory" biner just isn't worth it for a logo.

    Pardon me if I have come across cynical, beligerent, or terse. I mean no harm. I teach HS science so I tend to look at everything through tinted (or maybe tainted) vision and like to deal in facts. And one fact is that I am relatively new here and new to hanging. So I'll shut up now.

    But Youngblood, you do have me thinking about my "halving" statement. I'll have to think about your point...if for no other reason than you got me thinking about it. Time to go revisit vectors...and maybe some experimentation.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Mustardman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troglodyte View Post
    When a perfectly fine honest-to-goodness climbing biner can be had for $7.00 at the local, slightly overpriced, outdoor shop, putting your peace of mind hanging off of an "accessory" biner just isn't worth it for a logo.
    This was the same thing I thought as well. Camp Nano, Trango Superfly, BD Neutrino.... there are enough options in ultra-light UIAA rated 'biners out there that I don't see the benefit of these little things, especially since they aren't really much cheaper than a climbing 'biner unless you buy a pile of them.

  7. #27
    Mrprez's Avatar
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    Not everyone had the same use in mind. I'd like to have one or two to use as an accessory biners. I already have the ones I need for my straps and they are way more than adequate for the job.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troglodyte View Post
    Being the newbie here I'm not trying to ruffle anybody's feathers. Just trying to provide some numbers. Granted these are "textbook" numbers and do not take into consideration ANY variables.

    I apologize for not picking up on the bending concern. Coming from a little rappelling background knowingly side loading a biner was avoided at most every cost. I just won't do it. My background and how I wrap a tree excluded the thought of how others might do it. My apologies. Side loading a 5 kN biner would not be good. Schneiderlein you are right. Given the right conditions you can make anything fail. A knob of the tree on the gate would be bad...at least for the gate.

    And not to get into arguments of thoughts, feelings, and theories I will concede that you should always over-engineer everything and I am guilty of that many times over.

    When a perfectly fine honest-to-goodness climbing biner can be had for $7.00 at the local, slightly overpriced, outdoor shop, putting your peace of mind hanging off of an "accessory" biner just isn't worth it for a logo.

    Pardon me if I have come across cynical, beligerent, or terse. I mean no harm. I teach HS science so I tend to look at everything through tinted (or maybe tainted) vision and like to deal in facts. And one fact is that I am relatively new here and new to hanging. So I'll shut up now.

    But Youngblood, you do have me thinking about my "halving" statement. I'll have to think about your point...if for no other reason than you got me thinking about it. Time to go revisit vectors...and maybe some experimentation.
    I have no problem, sorry if I came off that way. You didn't come across in any negative way. Discussing technical things can be difficult in on-line forums because it is sometimes difficult to get across the specific, seemingly minor details and at times those make all the difference.

    I didn't think about vectors earlier either, but when you go back and look at vectors, I think to half the forces the 'two-halves' would have to be along the same vector trajectory and in-line with the force being halved... wouldn't they?
    Youngblood AT2000

  9. #29
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    My regular hanging trees in the back yard are 8" & 10" diam resep. Pre biners I never noticed any bending of the webbing at the loop as it connected back to the webbing on either tree. AND, the forces can't be all that great, I sewed the loop myself & it has withstood around 600+ hangings in all types of weather with & without biners. The biners seem to only have force in a straight line. Granted I am currently using climbers biners, but they replaced 2 key ring biners rated to only 300 lbs & they held me (208 Lbs plus gear) for 5 nights. My at home & work hanging system is from 2 biners rated to 600 Lbs & I hang from them attatched directly to eye bolts in the walls.

    I suspect that 1100 Lb biners should do just fine.

    That said: I rarely use trees under 7" dia, I suspect also that the smaller the tree, the more potential for bending. Last time I used a 4" tree was pre biner use. AND at work & home I do hang over a bed, "Just in case"
    When you have a backpack on, no matter where you are, you’re home.
    PAIN is INEVITABLE. MISERY is OPTIONAL.

  10. #30
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    It's all good - as my kids would say.

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