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  1. #11
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    I start out with my long johns, stocking hat, and clean socks on. Then, if I get cold during the night, I'll add a layer (pants, sweater, etc). My thoughts are that the less I have on initially, the quicker my top quilt and UQ will begin retaining heat. I don't have any scientific evidence for it, but that's my theory.

  2. #12
    Moondoggy's Avatar
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    I like Terramar base layers I winter hike in 1.1 and sleep in 3.1 body sensors !
    High ground is dry ground!
    Moondoggy

  3. #13
    Moondoggy's Avatar
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    I usually keep my pants on with my 3.1 s on and a down coat with my beanie and some thick WigWam socks !
    High ground is dry ground!
    Moondoggy

  4. #14
    Senior Member WickedKlown2's Avatar
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    I use Military Issue Polartec "Silkweight" long underwear ( also known as the ninja suit ) with Wigwan moister wicking sock liners, loosely fitting thick wool socks and a nomex balaclava ( also a Issue item and has sort of a bibbed skirt on it ) . 10 -15% heat loss can be through your head in the winter months. A vapor barrier is also a good idea but will have to be modded for a TQ if it was not made for it.

    Make sure the items you put on are clean and not what you wore earlier in the day ( i.e. dirt, sweat and skin oil builds up in the clothes and prevents them from releasing moister at night and makes you cooler ). One last thing is to take the clothes you want to wear the next day and stuff them down into the bottom of your TQ or Sleeping bag so it will take up air space in the bottom and also warm them up so you have something nice and warm to put on in the morning ( laying the clothes along your side inside the bag does the same thing but you will feel crowded in your bag ).

    Polartec "Silkweight" long underwear : http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/c...aspx?a=1101009

    Wigwam Sock Liners : http://www.campmor.com/wigwam-dry-fo...er-socks.shtml

    Nomex Balaclava : http://www.opticsplanet.com/blackhaw...d-w-nomex.html


    My Nomex Balaclava hanging on the ridge line from the previous night and all I wore was the above mentioned items ( it got down to 29*F and I stayed toasty all night )


    Silk Vapor Barrier : http://proforceequipment.com/product...id=47&catid=26

    Paratex Vapor Barrier : http://proforceequipment.com/product...id=50&catid=26

    I hope that helps
    Last edited by WickedKlown2; 12-03-2012 at 21:27.
    Dave aka WK2
    Cubmaster of Pack 640 - Smyna, TN
    Eagle Scout 1992 - Troop 86 Brentwood, TN
    Tread Lightly and Leave No Trace

  5. #15
    BillyBob58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DivaB View Post
    Ok BlackWolf; to boil all of that down, can you just tell me at what temps it would be good to sleep in one of those sweaty suit things/or a trash bag with bread bags on my feet... and should I be naked to do it? If naked is better, then how does one handle mother natures calling at 4am? I can understand if in a sauna suit, but a trash bag would be tricky! These aren't me being funny type of questions....they're real

    Ohio just seems to have such borderline temps in the winter, with it really dropping super low late at night or early in the morning for just a small amount of time. It's that 35 to 20 area that frustrates me on what to really pack for, if you're only going to be in the 20s for a couple of hours.

    Play nice with me on the play ground. I'm good for the kickball and basketball team
    Diva, I'm not Blackwolf, but I am somewhat partial towards a VB approach, at least sometimes, so may I comment while we await BW's response?

    Not sure how the naked thing would work or if it is needed, except to say that the less between you and the VB the better. EXCEPT, VBs don't always feel the best anyway- all of that humidity can freak you out when you 1st feel it and your brain screams "your getting wet and you'll soon be cold, do something!". But if it is bare skin against the VB it feels even worse, just not a pleasant feel. So I'm thinking at least a very thin layer of non-absorbent Long Johns against the skin, then a VB ( cloths or sack ) then all other insulation.

    I've done it that way a few times over the years, but what I really like is the fairly inexpensive VB clothing from Stephenson's Warmlight in NH. Their VBs are already lined and it feels better to me than the a separate thin layer. But either way, I think you are going to need something between your skin and the VB.

    Have you ever thought of this: If you block evaporative cooling, which can be a quite significant factor at cooling you down, then you also keep your insulation dry. Because your bodies vapor output can not get into the insulation and maybe condense. If you use your VB with less than old pro skill, and over heat and sweat, this won't be the most comfy possible scenario, but at least your sweat stays next to your skin and can not get into your down. (And after all, it is possible to over heat and sweat with no VB.) And if your vapor or sweat can not get into your down, then you are free to use any type of outer shell, including totally non--breathable, water and wind proof, fog proof Sil-nylon for one.

    Are you worried about overheating and sweating? The only reason to be concerned about that is because that moisture won't feel right. But, at least it won't make it to your down. Still, we don't want sweat of course. So try this experiment. Rig up some kind of VB, for torso, pants or socks or all of the above. With no other insulation, go sit outside a while when it is cold or cool. If you are like me, you will not sweat. You might be way warmer than you would expect with no thick insulation. But maybe it is colder, enough to feel cold even with the VB. Then add a thin layer of insulation. Once again, you probably won't sweat, but you might be way warmer than expected at those temps with such thin insulation.

    It is worth experimenting with. Probably the easiest to start out with are VB socks, or bread bags. Just make sure that whatever socks you put over them are still nice and loose even with the VBs added.

    Dirtwheels just used a 45F UQ to stay nice and warm at 23. What was different? He added a space blanket, which also functions as a VB. As if adding ~ 20F additional warmth is not good enough, you also have bone dry insulation even after a week or two, unless you let the rain get to it.

    Lastly, I'm not sure the temps have all that much to do with it, as long as you regulate your insulation with skill. I have sat around in the house for lengthy periods, wearing just the VB top, temps around 70. With no sweating observed. Of course, the warmer temps at some point do become a problem with possible sweat.
    For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us....that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.
    Romans 8:18,21-22

  6. #16
    Deadphans's Avatar
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    Ya know what would be interesting, starting a poll on preferences and compiling some stats...
    "In seed time learn, in harvest teach, in winter enjoy." -D'Signore's, Tide Mill Farm, Edmunds, Maine.

  7. #17
    Black Wolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BillyBob58 View Post
    Diva, I'm not Blackwolf, but I am somewhat partial towards a VB approach, at least sometimes, so may I comment while we await BW's response?

    Not sure how the naked thing would work or if it is needed, except to say that the less between you and the VB the better. EXCEPT, VBs don't always feel the best anyway- all of that humidity can freak you out when you 1st feel it and your brain screams "your getting wet and you'll soon be cold, do something!". But if it is bare skin against the VB it feels even worse, just not a pleasant feel. So I'm thinking at least a very thin layer of non-absorbent Long Johns against the skin, then a VB ( cloths or sack ) then all other insulation.

    I've done it that way a few times over the years, but what I really like is the fairly inexpensive VB clothing from Stephenson's Warmlight in NH. Their VBs are already lined and it feels better to me than the a separate thin layer. But either way, I think you are going to need something between your skin and the VB.

    Have you ever thought of this: If you block evaporative cooling, which can be a quite significant factor at cooling you down, then you also keep your insulation dry. Because your bodies vapor output can not get into the insulation and maybe condense. If you use your VB with less than old pro skill, and over heat and sweat, this won't be the most comfy possible scenario, but at least your sweat stays next to your skin and can not get into your down. (And after all, it is possible to over heat and sweat with no VB.) And if your vapor or sweat can not get into your down, then you are free to use any type of outer shell, including totally non--breathable, water and wind proof, fog proof Sil-nylon for one.

    Are you worried about overheating and sweating? The only reason to be concerned about that is because that moisture won't feel right. But, at least it won't make it to your down. Still, we don't want sweat of course. So try this experiment. Rig up some kind of VB, for torso, pants or socks or all of the above. With no other insulation, go sit outside a while when it is cold or cool. If you are like me, you will not sweat. You might be way warmer than you would expect with no thick insulation. But maybe it is colder, enough to feel cold even with the VB. Then add a thin layer of insulation. Once again, you probably won't sweat, but you might be way warmer than expected at those temps with such thin insulation.

    It is worth experimenting with. Probably the easiest to start out with are VB socks, or bread bags. Just make sure that whatever socks you put over them are still nice and loose even with the VBs added.

    Dirtwheels just used a 45F UQ to stay nice and warm at 23. What was different? He added a space blanket, which also functions as a VB. As if adding ~ 20F additional warmth is not good enough, you also have bone dry insulation even after a week or two, unless you let the rain get to it.

    Lastly, I'm not sure the temps have all that much to do with it, as long as you regulate your insulation with skill. I have sat around in the house for lengthy periods, wearing just the VB top, temps around 70. With no sweating observed. Of course, the warmer temps at some point do become a problem with possible sweat.
    BillyBob ..you pretty much hit the nail on the head .. Very well said .. tight fitting poly works best next to skin .. then the VB .. I have made some VB articles out of Thremoflect (it has an absorbent layer) that I'll be toying with on "The Winter Trek" ,, ( Thremoflect and Allied Down have sponsored me for this hike, I'll be testing Resist Down 850 and Thremoflect for use as VB) .. you want some moisture on your body to keep it from sweating .. it will condense in your insulation if you don't keep it out ..

    VBL's ( IMHO) are the best for sleeping for they are easier to vent .. with a liner, as opposed to clothes. A VBL can be used anytime you need to keep your down from getting wet from the inside out .. So Diva , any temp. is fine for a VB .. on the temps you mentioned .. a brief dip into the 20's .. and daytime temps into the 40's .. you can get away from the VB's if you wanted and dry your quilts when you stop at lunch .. this is one reason I use Black as much as I can .. it's a PITA to unpack to dry your stuff out .. but more of one when you're butt is cold due to the lack of loft. I can feel the moisture in the morning when I pack if I'm not using a VBL .. I have 30*F sleeping bag with a VBL made into it that I used before I elevated my perspective .. and you'd be surprised on how thin it is .. and light .. and packable .. it took some getting used to .. and a leap of faith .. but I learned VBL worked.

    I'm still on the fence about high level activity using a VB .. I've had an ongoing dialog with Andrew Skurka about the use of VB for hiking .. material choice's are more of what we discuss then whether they work .. they work .. no doubt .. you have to pay close attention to thermoregulation when your activities vary so much as they do when hiking, snowshoeing, etc. Having a way to vent easily while wearing VB clothes is paramount .. VB clothes don't fit, stretch, and move with your body. I'll be using polyolefin and neoprene as well as Thremoflect for hiking and snowshoeing and see how these work. (for me) ..
    "The wise man questions others wisdom because he questions his own, the foolish man because it is different from his own." Leo Stein

  8. #18
    MedicineMan's Avatar
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    something else to throw into the mix

    You've heard the expression 'better living through chemistry'.
    That said a small amount of silicon dioxide in small packets can
    do incredible things with moisture.
    Don't know where the application might be in 'our' world but nice to
    know it is out there.

  9. #19
    titanium_hiker's Avatar
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    if you can get them, merino (wool) long johns are pretty good. Or just some 'thermals' from an outdoors store, maybe 5-10 $ ?

    moisture wicking is good- remember it's your body that we need to look after first, then the down. Obviously the down is to keep you warm- but no good keeping the down pristine if you are not being kept warm.

    Vapour barriers are usually worn with a thin layer of clothing underneath for comfort and to absorb the water.

    TH
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    gram counter, not gram weenie!

  10. #20
    packeagle's Avatar
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    I've wondered about the use of fishnet long underwear with a VBL for a while. Wouldn't the fishnet keep the VBL away from the skin and add comfort while allowing the VBL to work effectively?

    I found a thread on some zombie forum about fishnet stockings and VBLs, guess I'm not alone. Actually, I probably got the idea from some where and can't remember where it came from.
    Last edited by packeagle; 12-04-2012 at 01:50.

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