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  1. #201
    Dos's Avatar
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    Thanks ~derek
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~
    In some mysterious way woods have never
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    In physical terms, I move through them;
    yet in metaphysical ones,
    they seem to move through me. -
    John Fowles


    GA --> ME '12

  2. #202
    Senior Member Floridahanger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dejoha View Post
    Well, it has been very interesting following this thread.

    Since beginning the thread, I've been talking with a lot of folks, including my contacts at the LNT Center.

    Here are some action items that have come out of this work:

    1. LNT agreed to update the blog post to include the smaller strap size (done).
    2. I will be working with a research team with LNT to develop curriculum on hammock camping ethics. The tentative plan is to have something ready by spring 2014.

    The LNT Center has been fantastic to work with. They are very supportive of hammock camping and the individuals on the research team are avid hammock campers. There is some good support here.

    There is a lot of work yet to be done. I'm glad that I am able to participate on this project and I'm looking forward to collaborating with the scientists.

    I should note that the blog post on LNT.org (that has been updated) was very old and has been buried for some time (there are no direct links to it and only a web search revealed it). The stop gap for now was to update that post with the long-term intention to revisit this topic in the spring once our team has completed the curriculum development.

    I am very pleased with the outlined process. LNT will not create guidelines behind closed doors or without some scientific backing. The research teams and scientists are not paid LNT employees but are independent researchers, some grant funded and others not. Once guidelines are created they are peer reviewed and go through a thorough evaluation before anything is released. As some have recognized, doing a thorough research project on the impact of straps on a tree would be long and expensive. The reality is that this is a low priority for everyone based on all the other major impacts facing national parks and other areas.

    The main takeaway for now is this: please use straps and encourage others to do the same.

    If anyone has any questions about the curriculum process, please send me a PM.

    Best,

    ~derek
    Quote Originally Posted by Detail Man View Post
    Sounds like there is some good work to be done. Thanks for the update, and for your effort.
    Dejoha, A job well done, just like your other endeavors. Indeed, there needs to be long term studies to trees before making lasting changes or policies.

    Detail Man among about 100+ other test subjects will be in Ocala National Forest in Florida on MLK weekend in January for the 4th Annual Florida Hang.

    This will be my 3rd year with the last 2 using the same trees. No perceivable damage to bark, limbs or leaves of either tree. Both growing strong. 1 is an Oak and the other a Pine.

    Dejoha, I'm sure we will be happy to have you there to "test" the tree suspension for Science's sake. Bring LNT educators and scientists with you to see how long term and high volume hangers can effect trees and the enviroment.

    So far the park rangers love us there, since the park is cleaner after we leave and the only thing left behind is a neatly stacked pile of firewood that wasn't used.
    Enjoy and have fun with your family, before they have fun without you

    My fantastic Photographer wife: http://www.capturedhearts-photography.com

  3. #203
    Senior Member DemostiX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hk2001 View Post
    Definitely species related. But strap width also played a role. The damage I saw was from the white pines where we hung at the fall NEHHA.
    My 1" straps definitely cause damage, but the 2" HH stock straps the guy I went with was using caused nothing (visible)

    That is why I'm getting so far into this. Because I never would have imagined my 200lb butt causing something like that. Yet there it was, in front of me. My hang angle was good, tree spacing, etc all good. Yet on a 14" (ish) diameter tree, I saw the damage. And I REALLY wish I had brought my camera with me. It was my first time hanging from a pine, and if I can ever help it, it'll be my last.

    Like the college professors I met with said: Evidence that damage CAN occur is easy. Take that worst case scenario I mentioned a few pages ago. All it'll take is someone overweight with a bad angle on the wrong species, and the picture will be right there in the LNT educational pamphlets.

    The fact that the recommendation has been made is the point to this. Do we agree with it? No, obviously a lot of us have a problem with the thought of spending more money, or being penalized 4 oz in additional strap weight. But the fact that the recommendation out there already means that it'll eventually be adopted. What happens when it does? At that point I certainly hope that the people who disagree with it will stop saying they're willing to break the law. At least here, on a forum that you don't even need to be a member to read.

    Your right, when it comes to hammocking, ethical responsibility and defending our passion, we are the ones fighting to keep these recommendations from getting totally out of control. We advocate that we're doing everything in our power to go miles beyond LNT when compared to ground dwellers. We compromise, present what evidence we have, and debate. 2" Straps, as far as I'm concerned is a compromise compared to 4", and the conversion straps make it more bearable by allowing us to keep our current hardware.

    We also educate ourselves, and each other. Especially the newbies just coming into this. If anyone is likely to inadvertently give us a bad name, it'll be someone who doesn't know any better.
    So, hk2001, this is part of your education in "denial." There have been several posts after yours taking no note of what you've seen yourself. Then, there are others, who will say " Yes, but the damage heals." Etc. etc. Right up there with epidemiologic links between carcinogens and tumors, sugar and diabetes, concussions and long-run brain damage.

    I suppose you've heard about why Brett Fravre isn't coming out of retirement, turning down $millions: He says there are gaps in his memory. Let others here be confident that isn't likely due to years of taking hits. Nahhh.

  4. #204
    TallPaul's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DemostiX View Post
    So, hk2001, this is part of your education in "denial." There have been several posts after yours taking no note of what you've seen yourself. Then, there are others, who will say " Yes, but the damage heals." Etc. etc. Right up there with epidemiologic links between carcinogens and tumors, sugar and diabetes, concussions and long-run brain damage.

    I suppose you've heard about why Brett Fravre isn't coming out of retirement, turning down $millions: He says there are gaps in his memory. Let others here be confident that isn't likely due to years of taking hits. Nahhh.
    In other words keep up the faith, science will follow?

  5. #205
    Thread Injector hk2001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TallPaul View Post
    In other words keep up the faith, science will follow?
    Honestly, I'm not sure how the post was meant, but either way is fine.

    Out of all this I take a whole lot of education about the biology of trees, something I otherwise have always taken for granted. I've never had a problem admitting I was wrong, but in this case, I'll hold off on that as the outcome is inconclusive. Yes, LNT has dialed back their recommendations, for now. I can't wait for the results of Derek's research, and I hope that I, and the people I've spoken with are wrong. Nothing would please me more. I also hope that the people who would say that the damage may heal are correct.

    I did make the jump to conversions straps, by my own choice. I had picked up a pair of HH seatbelt straps when I first started planning my Isle Royale trip, because I know NPS rangers have tighter expectations. So all I did was modify them like readystrap did, and I can now use all the hardware with them. As 80% of my hanging is done in higher traffic areas, I'd prefer to be safe than sorry.

    With everything else, this is a HYOH thing
    Last edited by hk2001; 10-28-2013 at 05:57.

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  6. #206
    New Member DBX's Avatar
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    Re: LNT Recommends 2-4-inch Webbing Straps

    Quote Originally Posted by dejoha View Post
    Well, it has been very interesting following this thread.

    Since beginning the thread, I've been talking with a lot of folks, including my contacts at the LNT Center.

    Here are some action items that have come out of this work:

    1. LNT agreed to update the blog post to include the smaller strap size (done).
    2. I will be working with a research team with LNT to develop curriculum on hammock camping ethics. The tentative plan is to have something ready by spring 2014.

    The LNT Center has been fantastic to work with. They are very supportive of hammock camping and the individuals on the research team are avid hammock campers. There is some good support here.

    There is a lot of work yet to be done. I'm glad that I am able to participate on this project and I'm looking forward to collaborating with the scientists.

    I should note that the blog post on LNT.org (that has been updated) was very old and has been buried for some time (there are no direct links to it and only a web search revealed it). The stop gap for now was to update that post with the long-term intention to revisit this topic in the spring once our team has completed the curriculum development.

    I am very pleased with the outlined process. LNT will not create guidelines behind closed doors or without some scientific backing. The research teams and scientists are not paid LNT employees but are independent researchers, some grant funded and others not. Once guidelines are created they are peer reviewed and go through a thorough evaluation before anything is released. As some have recognized, doing a thorough research project on the impact of straps on a tree would be long and expensive. The reality is that this is a low priority for everyone based on all the other major impacts facing national parks and other areas.

    The main takeaway for now is this: please use straps and encourage others to do the same.

    If anyone has any questions about the curriculum process, please send me a PM.

    Best,

    ~derek
    Thank you for your work on this!
    It's somewhat comforting to know there is some input from people that actually do use hammocks, not just an arbitrary ruling handed down from on high.
    "Never go anywhere without a knife" - Leroy Jethro Gibbs

  7. #207
    New Member DBX's Avatar
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    Re: LNT Recommends 2-4-inch Webbing Straps

    Quote Originally Posted by hk2001 View Post
    The point to this isn't to stomp your foot and say "I've done it this way, and no one will change my mind"...

    ... It's already happening in some places, because a small percentage just don't care. Those few ruin it for everyone else. Not specifically about hammocks but hanging anything from trees, even something as mundane as a tarp ridgeline, or even guylines...

    ...If hanging from a 1" strap shortens the life a tree by a few years, then it is a big deal. And you posting a "So what" is enough to label all of us as reckless and self centered in the eyes of some lawmaker. As the saying goes "One bad apple spoils the bunch"...
    ...
    This is one of the places I go. These trees will be harvested in about 5 more years. Harvested means clear cut! This area will be razed and replanted! Now you're telling me that my 1" straps will significantly reduce this trees life?
    "Never go anywhere without a knife" - Leroy Jethro Gibbs

  8. #208
    Senior Member Floridahanger's Avatar
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    This grove is not a long term protected forest. It is a tree farm, like tomatos, corn, lettuce, Christmas trees, etc. and in such is not the same as a National Forest.

    The trees life would be the "natural life" not a farmed life
    Quote Originally Posted by DBX View Post
    ...This is one of the places I go. These trees will be harvested in about 5 more years. Harvested means clear cut! This area will be razed and replanted! Now you're telling me that my 1" straps will significantly reduce this trees life?

    A tree will take more damage in it's life from four legged animals than 2 legged animals. Also insects and weather (lightning/winds etc.) will make more damage and forest fires will do even more.

    We should try to mitigate our part with LNT in respect from forest fires to and through physical damage of all, not just trees.

    This is the view of most of us, but I would add, WITHIN REASON. Let's not loose sight of reason in our discussions. Yes, straps can leave marks on bark, but that's the purpose of bark, to buffer the living tissue from wear and damage, just like our skin.

    And like our skin, it does grow back and heal over, some completely, some with scars. Check out how bonsai trees are formed. The tree's healing process is used to shape and contour the tree and bark to desired results.

    Happy hanging.
    Enjoy and have fun with your family, before they have fun without you

    My fantastic Photographer wife: http://www.capturedhearts-photography.com

  9. #209

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    Quote Originally Posted by DBX View Post
    This is one of the places I go. These trees will be harvested in about 5 more years. Harvested means clear cut! This area will be razed and replanted! Now you're telling me that my 1" straps will significantly reduce this trees life?
    You may be right, but.....
    I think what some of us are saying is:"That's not the 'big picture'."
    We have to make sure that we do everything reasonable to prevent hammock bans on public land.
    Let's face it: For most people in authority, 'just saying No' is a lot less trouble than thinking about an issue in a rational way.
    Let's not give them an excuse.

  10. #210
    New Member DBX's Avatar
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    Re: LNT Recommends 2-4-inch Webbing Straps

    Quote Originally Posted by VictoriaGuy View Post
    You may be right, but.....
    I think what some of us are saying is:"That's not the 'big picture'."
    We have to make sure that we do everything reasonable to prevent hammock bans on public land.
    Let's face it: For most people in authority, 'just saying No' is a lot less trouble than thinking about an issue in a rational way.
    Let's not give them an excuse.
    Yes, I agree! I'm in no way promoting callous use of our forests. Heaven knows I've cleaned enough trash left by knuckelheads to fill a dumpster, pulled nails left in trees, and cut down wire and rope left around limbs.
    That's why this just kind of pushes my buttons. My 1" strap is going to get me cited for damage to a tree and no one is doing anything about these bums?
    Do I get told to remove my hammock straps from a tree with ALL the bark scraped off by the deer?
    Believe me, I know what you're saying about the "just say no" thing, I worked around and for gubment types for decades. Just more knuckleheads. JMHO, YMMV :banghead:
    "Never go anywhere without a knife" - Leroy Jethro Gibbs

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