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  1. #621
    Frawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truehart View Post
    2) This is kind of a question for Frawg, but anyone is welcome to answer. In your WS you put a toggle on your fixed end. http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery...php?i=6401&c=3 Is it better to bury the “loose end” (the end that goes around the toggle) back into the “working end” or is it better to bury the “working end” into the “loose end”?
    Thought I'd just re-edit my whole response to clear the fluff.

    I bury the working end into the loose end in order to get a slip knot effect, which grips the toggle very tightly so it doesn't get lost. Burying the loose end in the working end would produce an unlocked eye splice (if fully buried) or a tiny whoopie sling (if in & out buried), neither of which would accomplish my intent.

    Note that the loose nub must be secured on its end, either by backsplice as shown or by whipping or melting the fibers. Otherwise that little bury will eventually unravel, with an ugly outcome.

    Sorry for the previous ramblings.

    Cheers!
    Last edited by Frawg; 05-31-2010 at 11:16. Reason: house cleaning
    - Frawg

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  2. #622
    SlowBro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truehart View Post

    3) Has anyone had any problems with spraying bug spray on your WSs (i.e. premature degradation) I just don't want the little critters crawling down my suspension.

    Thanks so much in advance.

    -Truehart
    May folks use Permethrin spray for their hammocks, sock, clothes, etc. I should be fine for the lines, too. If you use DEET, (I'm not a big DEET guy, but) I would soak a sample piece of line in it prior to spraying everything with a DEET containing spray.

    Permethrin is the better choice for fiber. DO NOT spray Permethrin on yourself!!! BAD IDEA. However, it is generally considered safe once it is dry.
    - Mark
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    "Do what you can, with what you have, where you are."-Theodore Roosevelt

  3. #623
    SlowBro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truehart View Post

    1) I’ve seen a couple ways to do the toggles that I like. Two of them being in TeeDee’s picture here http://www.hammockforums.net/gallery...&imageuser=226 , specifically #1919 and 1921. Also, someone posted a pic of them using a carabiner for a toggle of sorts, but instead of it actually being a toggle that sits outside of the loop it was more like a bar used to connect two loops where the loops were wrapped around it and pulling perpendicularly across the bar. I can’t seem to find that pic now. Which method is better? I’m having trouble “wrapping” my brain around how the forces are being distributed using the different toggle setups.


    -Truehart
    Go to the 6:00 min. mark in THIS Grizz tutorial on suspensions. It is on the Marlinspike Hitch. Very simple. Many use what Grizz shows in the video. It is what I use. Has never dropped me or even slipped. If you want a vector diagram of forces, you will have to get Frawg or Grizz or TeeDee or someone to figure it out.

    - Mark
    -SlowBro
    "Do what you can, with what you have, where you are."-Theodore Roosevelt

  4. #624
    Member Truehart's Avatar
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    Thanks for the answers, guys.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frawg View Post
    I bury the working end into the loose end in order to get a slip knot effect, which grips the toggle very tightly so it doesn't get lost. Burying the loose end in the working end would produce an unlocked eye splice (if fully buried) or a tiny whoopie sling (if in & out buried), neither of which would accomplish my intent.
    So, basically, you’re using the “slip knot” to hold onto your toggle even when not in use. Am I correct? I will probably do it this way so I don’t lose my toggle. I just need to figure out what I’m going to use as toggles.

    Quote Originally Posted by SlowBro View Post
    May folks use Permethrin spray for their hammocks, sock, clothes, etc. I should be fine for the lines, too. If you use DEET, (I'm not a big DEET guy, but) I would soak a sample piece of line in it prior to spraying everything with a DEET containing spray.

    Permethrin is the better choice for fiber. DO NOT spray Permethrin on yourself!!! BAD IDEA. However, it is generally considered safe once it is dry.
    - Mark
    Sounds good. Can I find this in local stores (i.e. Wal Mart)? Also, is it ok to treat your clothes then, once it has dried and you’re wearing them, spray down with regular insect repellant on top of that or do I just need to spray the exposed areas and keep the regular spray away from the permethrin?

    Quote Originally Posted by SlowBro View Post
    Go to the 6:00 min. mark in THIS Grizz tutorial on suspensions. It is on the Marlinspike Hitch. Very simple. Many use what Grizz shows in the video. It is what I use. Has never dropped me or even slipped. If you want a vector diagram of forces, you will have to get Frawg or Grizz or TeeDee or someone to figure it out.

    - Mark
    I was a little wary of the Marlinspike Hitch, at first. Then I watched Grizz’s video last week and saw how easy it was. I then tried it on my test hang (hammocks finally got here ). Worked great! I’m now a believer in the MH. I also love how it can hold onto your toggle when you’re done.
    ~We all start at the bottom~

  5. #625
    Frawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Truehart View Post
    So, basically, you’re using the “slip knot” to hold onto your toggle even when not in use. Am I correct? I will probably do it this way so I don’t lose my toggle. I just need to figure out what I’m going to use as toggles.
    That's correct. If you look closely at the small bury you can see that it jams up very tightly, to the point that I find it impossible to loosen although I can still remove a smooth aluminum toggle with a little twisting about its axis. Not so easy to reinsert, though.

    Edit: FWIW, I'm now using 1-1/4" long toggles cut from cheap Walmart aluminum tent stakes. There are several options, some probably lighter.
    - Frawg

    {generic tagline}

  6. #626
    Senior Member TiredFeet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frawg View Post
    That's correct. If you look closely at the small bury you can see that it jams up very tightly, to the point that I find it impossible to loosen although I can still remove a smooth aluminum toggle with a little twisting about its axis. Not so easy to reinsert, though.

    Edit: FWIW, I'm now using 1-1/4" long toggles cut from cheap Walmart aluminum tent stakes. There are several options, some probably lighter.
    TeeDee and I struggled for about a year for a way to use toggles in spliced fixed eyes. We tried all kinds of ways of tying the toggle to the cord, none ever worked very well.

    Then 2 or 3 months or so back TeeDee was playing around with some vinyl tubing and had an inspiration: a way to "capture" the toggle in the fixed eye and that didn't get in the way.

    He took 2 short lengths of the vinyl tubing from Lowes with an ID slightly smaller than the OD of the toggle and slid a piece on the toggle on both sides of the cord of the fixed eye.

    Pic:



    Worked really great. Keeps the toggle "captured" in the fixed eye and doesn't interfere with using the toggle in any way.

    It was really funny, because after struggling with a way to use the toggles and not lose them, he finds this means of doing so.

    Then less than a month later, he removes ALL toggles from the suspension and changes it all over to Lanyard knots. Turns out that the Lanyard knots are even easier to use with the spliced fixed eyes and a fraction of the weight.

    So he finds the solution to a vexing problem and then finds he doesn't need it anymore.

    But what the heck, if someone else can use the solution, that's still good.

  7. #627
    Frawg's Avatar
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    Interesting, TF. In my case I put a high premium on quick (dis)connect under adverse conditions, which is what led me to the captive toggle. In principle I like the nacrabiner / loop shackle / lanyard knot approach but I find it less convenient in the dark, with cold wind and rain. One other thing, which I adapted from you & TeeDee relatively recently, is the use of elastic tubing to secure the free end of my UCRs. What I did differently was to double the tubing back on itself, so it squeezes a bit tighter. The resulting UCR is quite secure yet still relatively easy to adjust. I'm finally where I want to be with my suspension.

    Edit: here's a pic of the secured UCR end:
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Frawg; 06-01-2010 at 13:07.
    - Frawg

    {generic tagline}

  8. #628
    Frawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiredFeet View Post
    TeeDee and I struggled for about a year for a way to use toggles in spliced fixed eyes. We tried all kinds of ways of tying the toggle to the cord, none ever worked very well.
    Just for grins, here's what I was trying before the nacrabiner approach:
    Attached Images Attached Images
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  9. #629
    Senior Member TiredFeet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frawg View Post
    Interesting, TF. In my case I put a high premium on quick (dis)connect under adverse conditions, which is what led me to the captive toggle. In principle I like the nacrabiner / loop shackle / lanyard knot approach but I find it less convenient in the dark, with cold wind and rain. One other thing, which I adapted from you & TeeDee relatively recently, is the use of elastic tubing to secure the free end of my UCRs. What I did differently was to double the tubing back on itself, so it squeezes a bit tighter. The resulting UCR is quite secure yet still relatively easy to adjust.
    Funny, but those are the exact reasons we traded out the toggles for the Lanyard knot

    Reduced weight was a serendipitous reward that we weren't really concerned about, but willing to accept.

    Have you had any problem with the UCR letting go when touched under load? We found that even with the tubing squeezing the UCR bury, it still had a tendency to let go when touched, even a light touch, under load. now granted that this isn't going to be something that happens often, but both of us have had our hammock suspensions rubbed by passing wildlife (both human and otherwise). When with others in a group, we have found that people moving between hammocks tend to duck under the suspension rather than walk around the tree. When doing so, it is very common, not to duck enough and brush the suspension with a shoulder or back. In our tests, even the slightest brush would cause the UCR to let go and when one lets go, it is a total failure.

    We finally decided that the ONLY way to thwart the problem was to secure the free end as you and others have done with Prussics and shock cord or other methods. TeeDee has not been willing to go that route since it reminds him of the criticism that others had of the webbing and ring buckle suspension which needed the half hitch to secure. I agree with him.

    We just were not willing to go that route since the sole advantage of the UCR over the whoopie is the use of less rope and only marginally less rope at that. Adding in the Prussic or shock cord or whatever, just made the marginally less rope, even less so.

    Using the toggle reduces the weight advantage of the UCR over the whoopie using lanyard knots. The weight advantage has probably shrunken to the point that I really wonder if working on the fatal flaw (fatal for us anyway) is a losing game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frawg View Post
    I'm finally where I want to be with my suspension.

    ..


    TeeDee has been through more suspensions than I have starting with webbing and cam clamps and progressing through rings, carabiners, rings again, bowline loops and his first iteration of his SLS, then whoopies and another iteration of his SLS, then his MSLS, then toggles in the MSLS. We are finally at the Lanyard knot version of the MSLS. I moved here at about the time he was abandoning webbing except for huggers and have been through all of the many iterations with him - fascinating to watch him study on something for days, weeks and months and then the whole thing comes out full blown. It's been a real kick and fun and I have to admit each new suspension has always been lighter, less bulky and easier to use than the previous.

    Are we at his FINAL suspension

    After saying that with each one of the above, I no longer even dream of that.

    He is currently at less than an ounce for the suspension using DynaGlide and can be used up a tree span of 21'.

    If his next one improves on the ease of use and weight he may soon have it to less than 0.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frawg View Post
    Just for grins, here's what I was trying before the nacrabiner approach:
    If you look closely at the pic I linked, you can see the hole in one end of a toggle where a cord was used to secure the toggle just as you did. That securing cord was ALWAYS a PITA and ALWAYS in the way. I guess you quickly discovered that also.

  10. #630
    Frawg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TiredFeet View Post
    Funny, but those are the exact reasons we traded out the toggles for the Lanyard knot
    Different strokes...

    Have you had any problem with the UCR letting go when touched under load?
    Never. I'll admit to being a little surprised that y'all had had that issue. I've always been careful, though, with bury length and securing the sensitive tail of the UCR.

    We found that even with the tubing squeezing the UCR bury, it still had a tendency to let go when touched, even a light touch, under load.
    I guess there must be something different in our setups, because I really haven't experienced that and will admit to being puzzled as to why y'all have had that issue.

    now granted that this isn't going to be something that happens often, but both of us have had our hammock suspensions rubbed by passing wildlife (both human and otherwise). When with others in a group, we have found that people moving between hammocks tend to duck under the suspension rather than walk around the tree. When doing so, it is very common, not to duck enough and brush the suspension with a shoulder or back. In our tests, even the slightest brush would cause the UCR to let go and when one lets go, it is a total failure.
    Yeah I can see that's a concern, though not one I've had to deal with yet; guess I'll see, down the road. My latest setup seems pretty solid, though -- operative word being 'seems'. Still, I feel pretty confident about it and have yet to suffer any let downs. Well, except for the time I got sloppy with one of those pseudo-slip knot free ends. <ouch!>

    We finally decided that the ONLY way to thwart the problem was to secure the free end as you and others have done with Prussics and shock cord or other methods. TeeDee has not been willing to go that route since it reminds him of the criticism that others had of the webbing and ring buckle suspension which needed the half hitch to secure. I agree with him.
    I hear ya, though for me it's more an aesthetic issue than a practical one. At any rate, your idea to use elastic tubing was just what I needed.

    We just were not willing to go that route since the sole advantage of the UCR over the whoopie is the use of less rope and only marginally less rope at that. Adding in the Prussic or shock cord or whatever, just made the marginally less rope, even less so.
    More 'different strokes', methinks. In my case, I like the aesthetics of the UCR. For me the weight differences aren't significant enough to worry about. What is it, half the weight of a chocolate chip cookie? I'm being facetious, but then I'm not shooting for SUL. The only other thing I found annoying with the WS is its tendency to pop off a toggle when adjusting it; probably my clumsiness, but still it's ME I'm thinking of...

    Using the toggle reduces the weight advantage of the UCR over the whoopie using lanyard knots. The weight advantage has probably shrunken to the point that I really wonder if working on the fatal flaw (fatal for us anyway) is a losing game.
    Well, I'm with you there! There's not much bone left to gnaw on.

    Are we at his FINAL suspension

    After saying that with each one of the above, I no longer even dream of that.


    He is currently at less than an ounce for the suspension using DynaGlide and can be used up a tree span of 21'.

    If his next one improves on the ease of use and weight he may soon have it to less than 0.
    Two words: helium balloons....


    If you look closely at the pic I linked, you can see the hole in one end of a toggle where a cord was used to secure the toggle just as you did. That securing cord was ALWAYS a PITA and ALWAYS in the way. I guess you quickly discovered that also.
    Heh heh... I guess there must be personality differences in play, too. For me it wasn't so much a PITA as it was a cost of doing things that way. My personal problem was the difficulty of using pre-arthritic old guy fingers trying to form the toggled link with interlocked loops in cold and rain with wind ballooning the hammock.

    HYOH to all, but it's been a great trip covering all these bases together.

    All the best!
    - Frawg

    {generic tagline}

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